D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[Minigiant]

Here is the rough draft of my Paragon class

Hit Points​

Hit Dice: 1d12 per paragon level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 12 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d12 (or 7) + your Constitution modifier per paragon level after 1st

Proficiencies​

Armor: Light armor, medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Constitution Charisma
Skills: Choose two from Athletics, History, Intimidation, Perception, Religion, and Survival

Equipment​

You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

• (a) hide armor and a maul or (b) leather armor and two shortswords
• (a) two javelins or (b) any simple weapon
• (a) a longsword and a shield or (b) two martial weapons
• An explorer’s pack

Level	Proficiency	Features	Invocations Known
1st	+2	Supernatural Might, Paragon Improvement (22)
2nd	+2	Eldritch Invocations	2
3rd	+2	Source of Power	2
4th	+2	Ability Score Improvement	2
5th	+3	Extra Attack, Paragon Improvement (24)	3
6th	+3	Source of Power,	3

Supernatural Might
At 1st level, you develop a superhuman level of ability of your choice: Super Strength, Incredible Speed, or Invulnerable Skin, Your choice grants you features at 1st level.

Super Strength
You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift. Also add your Constitution score to the distance of your long jump and your Constitution modifier (minimum +1) to the height of your high jump.

Incredible Speed
Your speed increases feet equal to you Dexterity or Constitution score (whichever is higher) while you aren’t wearing medium or heavy armor. Also you can perform the Dash Action as a bonus action.

Invulnerable Skin.
You may substitute your Constitution modifier for your Dexterity modifier when determining AC or rolling saving throws. Also your hit point maximum increases by 1, and it increases by 1 every time you gain a level in paragon

Paragon Improvement
At the 1st level, choose Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. The chosen ability score increases by 1 and the maximum value for the score increases by 2. This happens again at the again at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.

Eldritch Invocations

Source of Power
At 3rd level, the source of your supernatural gift begins to reveal itself. Your source grants you features at 3rd level and again at 6th, 10th, and 14th level

Demigod
You are the child or a descendant of a deity. The divine blood is the source of your power and strengthens you body.

Agelessness
Starting when you gain this source at the 3rd level, you stop aging. You cannot die of old age and magic cannot alter your age against your will.

Demigod Rejuvenation
At the 3rd level, you can restore your own vitality and senses. As an action, you can roll all your paragon HD and heal half that many hitpoints. You do not add your Constitution modifier. In addition you cure yourself of the blinded or deafened condition if you still have eyes or ears respectively. Once you do this, you cannot do it again until you finish a long rest.

Divine Wrath
At the 6th level, your strikes are imbued with holy power. Your unarmed and weapon attack deal an addition 1d6 radiant damage.

 

[Yaarel]

For comparison: below are the spells (that dont suck) that a Wizard gets at levels 7 and 8, and at levels 9 and 10.

At levels 7 and 8, when a Fighter fights a foe that is a Wizard, the Fighter might fear Black Tentacles and Watery Sphere, as damage-dealing immobilizers, and Polymorph as an encounter-ender.

At levels 9 and 10, a Fighter might fear Dominate Person and Hold Monster as encounter-enders, and Wall of Force and maybe Arcane Hand (Bigbys) as immobilizers.



The Polymorph spell seems fair. The new morph can still attack and reverts back to normal if the morph reduces to 0 hit points. Dominate Person is powerful but each time the target takes damage grants a new save.



Probably, the main frustration is Wall of Force (and at an even higher level Forcecage).

Regarding force (= ether) barriers generally (here Wall of Force and Arcane Hand, but also spells like Tiny Hut and Forcecage), it is narratively sensible to allow a Wisdom save versus force, and perhaps to use an action to attempt to willpower ones way thru a force barrier. The force itself is telekinetic in nature and psychosensitive.

Possibly, Wall of Force can become a slot-6 or even a slot-7 spell, since it is significantly better than other wall spells. Then only a Wizard 11 or 13 would be able to cast it. Alternatively, update Wall of Force to allow a Wisdom ( = willpower) check to bypass it.



Maybe the solution isnt changing the Fighter, but rather revamping the Wizard spells so the power of each spell is comparable to the other spells at the same level.





LEVEL 7-8 WIZARD (SLOT 4)

Good Spells
Dimension Door 4
Vitriolic Sphere 4
Arcane Eye 4
Black Tentacles 4
Resilient Sphere 4

Excellent Spells
Watery Sphere 4
Greater Invisibility 4
Polymorph 4


LEVEL 9-10 WIZARD (SLOT 5)

Good Spells
Hold Monster 5
Dominate Person 5
Arcane Hand 5
Cone Of Cold 5
Animate Objects 5

Excellent Spells
Wall Of Force 5

 

[Yaarel]

If the Fighter has a better Wis save, it mitigates some of the nastier Wizard spells.

 

[DND_Reborn]

UPDATE: 2nd Draft

Design Choices. I removed Improved Critical and Remarkable Athlete, so Champion is normal as a subclass. I also reduced the number of "martial maneuvers" so Battle Masters can still be played, but would gain an additional 1-4 maneuvers due to the core class.

1. Fighting Style. I kept this linked to Intelligence. I feel Fighters are gaining enough features now that additional fighting styles later on aren't as necessary. In addition, I encourage the Martial Versatility option to change your fighting style when you gain a level (or ASI or whenever) in Fighter.

2. Second Wind. Increased the uses per day, but changed it to a long rest. This way it isn't dependent on the DM or the party to try to get in the short rest so it can be used again.

3. Martial Maneuvers. I reduced the number of maneuvers so that is more the bailiwick of the Battle Master subclass. If you choose to be a Battle Master, superiority dice replace superiority bonus and uses. Basically you just pick up 1-4 additional maneuvers.

4. Many Leagues. (This is meant to help with exploration and social pillars.) I've updated this to include Insight and an option from four skills (which can be revised of course), and removed double proficiency bonus. I don't want Fighters to replace rogues/bards as skill monkeys but to be useful themselves.

5. Superior Training (replaced Remarkable Athlete). This now becomes a catch-all for skills for Fighters by allowing you to learn any two language, skill, or tool proficiency. If you want depth instead of breadth, it allows you instead to double your proficiency bonus in a proficiency you already have instead of learning two new ones.

By keeping this wide open, a Fighter can pick up skills to help with either exploration or social pillars, or choose to emphasize a proficiency they already have in either pillar, or for a skill more combat-oriented.

6. Indomitable. I've added proficiency in Wisdom saving throws. I realized Fighters already have Constitution saves for resisting things, and adding Wisdom made sense. It does make this feature even stronger, however, but since I am limited it to once per short or long rest (you never gain additional uses), I am hoping that is a reasonable trade-off?

7. Extra Attack (2). I decided to restore Extra Attack (2) and remove Improved Critical, moving Heroic Surge to later on. I don't want to bring Extra Attack (3) back because it only comes online at 20th level, and like the versatility you get with Marvelous Surge more.

8. Action Surge/ Heroic Surge/ Marvelous Surge. No changes to these except moving Heroic Surge until later on. Of course, by restoring Extra Attack (2), you will get even more attacks with Heroic Surge (9 attacks) and Marvelous Surge (12 attacks!!!). However, surging is only ever available once per short rest, and you can only use it for more attacks OR for increasing distance, jumps, lifts, etc.

9. Turn the Tide. This has been updated to more represent you are working with someone, but I might update it more to also be a solo feature. Working Together grants advantage, as does Helping in combat, this feature adds +5 more, but is usable only once per rest.

10. Incredible Resistance. I renamed this to avoid confusion with the feature it is based on. With Legendary Resistance, you can choose to succeed after you roll. With this feature you must declare its use instead of rolling.

That's the draft two update. Further thoughts and suggestions? Again, is anything too OP really? Do the features function to fill the gaps towards versatility, shenanigans, and the exploration and social pillars?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

1st @HammerMan should be in on this.

UPDATE: 1ST DRAFT

Below is a first attempt to help with some of the issues raised. I know it doesn't hit all the points, but hopefully it is a good start.

My concern is if this makes the fighter too strong? So, please get any feedback you have.

Design Choices. I borrowed heavily from Champion and Battle Master, so those subclasses could be updated. In looking at the class, Fighters don't gain a lot IMO from the core class. You might feel differently.

1. Fighting Style. Allowing Fighters more styles allows for greater versatility. By linking it to Intelligence, it also helps for people who feel fighters should get something from brains as well as brawn.

2. Second Wind. Increased number of uses per day. Also an option to be used with your reaction, allowing you to stay up if a hit would take you to 0 hp. I would do either/or, not both so I am interested in your thoughts.

3. Martial Maneuvers. A number of people suggested allowing all fighters access to Battle Master maneuvers, to increase tactical versatility and effectiveness. I removed the die roll by making the bonus equal to your proficiency bonus and the number of dice also equal to the same. This is fairly close to what Battle Masters would get anyway without the added complexity.

4. Many Leagues. (This is meant to help with exploration and social pillars.) I got this idea about soldiers marching, etc. and being sent to different lands. History represents the knowledge gained about other places, and Insight and extra languages about the creatures you encounter. Advantage on forced marches just made sense but probably won't be used much.

5. Remarkable Athlete. (Expertise in Athletics will help with exploration somewhat.) Proficiency/Expertise just makes sense and should have been part of the feature from the beginning. I've included additional options I like, but certainly can't use all of them LOL. If you have any preferences or other suggestions, let me know!

6. Action Surge/ Heroic Surge/ Marvelous Surge. Action Surge still allows you to take another action. However, I thought this could represent the extra effort you could put forth into other physical acts. You can certainly use Action Surge to Dash again, doubling your distance, but the feature is also meant to be able to double your jumps. You can also use it to double your lift capacity for the turn, representing exception feats of Strength (adrenaline, etc.). Since I have replaced Extra Attack (2) and (3) with Heroic Surge and Marvelous Surge, the over all number of attacks is reduced except when you Surge. I know this will probably get some pushback, and I haven't looked at the numbers to see how much impact it has, so I am not certain about that aspect.

As far as number of attacks go, with action surge you double, giving you four attacks when used for attacking.
Heroic surge would give you six attacks if you used both additional actions for attacking.
Marvelous surge would give you eight attacks if you used all actions for attacking.

7. Improved Critical. This might come online too late, and I was thinking of putting Extra Attack (2) there instead. Thoughts?

8. Turn the Tide. I really wanted some sort of shenanigan here which was not combat, but this was all I could think of...

9. Legendary Resistance. At this point, I really think Indomitable should become automatic. Personally, I'd rather see that than just more uses of Indomitable, but if you feel otherwise let me know.

That's it for draft one. I am hoping these changes help in the exploration (remarkable athlete and changes to surging features) and social (proficiencies and languages from many leagues) pillars, as well as grant some abilities that rival low level spells.

So, what, if anything, is too strong? I know this won't be nearly enough for people who want a Superheroic class, but maybe it will close the gap somewhat?

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2nd... I like some of it, I prefer second wind remain as is though.
I also qustion Heroic surge and Marvelous surge over extra extra attacsk.

Turn the tide is cool, I love that is can be used in ANY pillar instead of just combat.

Remarkable athlete I could almost see you chooseing one of the 'extra' ideas per long rest to have. "I preped for a climb" "I preped for a run"

 

[DND_Reborn]

1st @HammerMan should be in on this.

2nd... I like some of it, I prefer second wind remain as is though.
I also qustion Heroic surge and Marvelous surge over extra extra attacsk.

Turn the tide is cool, I love that is can be used in ANY pillar instead of just combat.

Remarkable athlete I could almost see you chooseing one of the 'extra' ideas per long rest to have. "I preped for a climb" "I preped for a run"

Thanks! Hopefully @HammerMan will chime in.

Please review the 2nd Draft I just posted when you have time and let me know what you think. Thanks!

 

[Yaarel]

The "double proficiency" is a big deal, way more than a skill. For example, to get both Perception and "double proficiency" with it, is worth a feat by itself.

 

[Yaarel]

Marvelous Surge with 3 extra combat actions looks broken.

It is the kind of thing that makes character optimization go crazy.

 

[Yaarel]

When it comes to combat math, I would change nothing. Stick with the official math, as-is. The designers are highly aware about combat math.

But when it comes to flexibility in combat, things like mobility and detection, there is room for play.

When it comes to out-of-combat features, the Fighter needs improvement.

 

[FrozenNorth]

I think the design goals of "gritty and attrition-based" and "fighters that get to feel awesome" are fundamentally incompatible. That said, there's at least one daily resource all classes have in common: hit points (and hit dice). Sure, fighters get to recover some once per short rest with Second Wind, but Second Wind scales really poorly.

I would respond to @Lanefan in a similar but slightly different manner.

If the goal is “gritty and attrition-based”, it is achievable with a couple of small changes to the fighter and major changes to the wizard. Contrariwise, if the goal is heroic epic, it is achievable with small changes to the wizard and corresponding large changes to the fighter.

But overall, you cannot achieve “gritty and attrition-based” without culling the power of wizards. At the very least, you would need to nerf certain spells (Leomund’s tiny hut), restrict spell recovery, and threaten the wizard’s spellbook .