D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[Cap'n Kobold]

I'd suggest having the assorted abilities all refresh prof bonus times per day rather than tying them to short rests.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I prefer Second Wind B because A can result in the player burning themselves out way quick on HD.

Remarkable Athlete might be set on subclass

Many Leagues's History bonus feels like a subclass thing. Not every fighter is going to learn history. Maybe a choice of History, Nature, Religion or Medicine?

Turn the tide feels like a Leader fighter (warlord) subclass power. Again, not every fighter is going to be inspiring.

Otherwise, this looks like a much more interesting fighter chassis.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'd suggest having the assorted abilities all refresh prof bonus times per day rather than tying them to short rests.

That was the route the design seems to be heading given Tasha IIRC (I don't own it, so I can't be certain).

I just stayed with short rests because that was supposed to be a strength of the Fighter class.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Thanks for your input!

I prefer Second Wind B because A can result in the player burning themselves out way quick on HD.

Option A for Second Wind doesn't use HD, it is just a number of used based on proficiency bonus. I did think of having it allow you to use HD instead of waiting to finish a short rest, so it is interesting you mention HD.

Remarkable Athlete might be set on subclass

It was, but I think pretty much any fighter should have it, but maybe a choice between Athlete or Acrobatics might be more fitting for a "general" fighter?

Many Leagues's History bonus feels like a subclass thing. Not every fighter is going to learn history. Maybe a choice of History, Nature, Religion or Medicine?

Sure, I don't mind expanding it to a choice of four skills. Makes sense to me.

Turn the tide feels like a Leader fighter (warlord) subclass power. Again, not every fighter is going to be inspiring.

Honestly, it was the last feature I came up with, so if you have a suggestion for something else in that place let me know!

Otherwise, this looks like a much more interesting fighter chassis.

Thanks. I'll keep working on it so please keep giving feedback! Much appreciated.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It was, but I think pretty much any fighter should have it, but maybe a choice between Athlete or Acrobatics might be more fitting for a "general" fighter?

I think you're misunderstanding. The second part where you question what other features it might give like increased speed, swim speed, climb speed, etc, that's the part I think might change per subclass.

Honestly, it was the last feature I came up with, so if you have a suggestion for something else in that place let me know!

Maybe just a flavor change where it's more like a Super Aid Another instead of inspiration? Then a Leader subclass can build on it?

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think you're misunderstanding. The second part where you question what other features it might give like increased speed, swim speed, climb speed, etc, that's the part I think might change per subclass.

Oh, got it! Thanks for the clarification. So you don't think any really fit for the core class?

Maybe just a flavor change where it's more like a Super Aid Another instead of inspiration? Then a Leader subclass can build on it?

Ok that's fair, but what would "Super Aid Another" do?

 

[Fanaelialae]

UPDATE: 1ST DRAFT

Below is a first attempt to help with some of the issues raised. I know it doesn't hit all the points, but hopefully it is a good start.

My concern is if this makes the fighter too strong? So, please get any feedback you have.

Design Choices. I borrowed heavily from Champion and Battle Master, so those subclasses could be updated. In looking at the class, Fighters don't gain a lot IMO from the core class. You might feel differently.

1. Fighting Style. Allowing Fighters more styles allows for greater versatility. By linking it to Intelligence, it also helps for people who feel fighters should get something from brains as well as brawn.

2. Second Wind. Increased number of uses per day. Also an option to be used with your reaction, allowing you to stay up if a hit would take you to 0 hp. I would do either/or, not both so I am interested in your thoughts.

3. Martial Maneuvers. A number of people suggested allowing all fighters access to Battle Master maneuvers, to increase tactical versatility and effectiveness. I removed the die roll by making the bonus equal to your proficiency bonus and the number of dice also equal to the same. This is fairly close to what Battle Masters would get anyway without the added complexity.

4. Many Leagues. (This is meant to help with exploration and social pillars.) I got this idea about soldiers marching, etc. and being sent to different lands. History represents the knowledge gained about other places, and Insight and extra languages about the creatures you encounter. Advantage on forced marches just made sense but probably won't be used much.

5. Remarkable Athlete. (Expertise in Athletics will help with exploration somewhat.) Proficiency/Expertise just makes sense and should have been part of the feature from the beginning. I've included additional options I like, but certainly can't use all of them LOL. If you have any preferences or other suggestions, let me know!

6. Action Surge/ Heroic Surge/ Marvelous Surge. Action Surge still allows you to take another action. However, I thought this could represent the extra effort you could put forth into other physical acts. You can certainly use Action Surge to Dash again, doubling your distance, but the feature is also meant to be able to double your jumps. You can also use it to double your lift capacity for the turn, representing exception feats of Strength (adrenaline, etc.). Since I have replaced Extra Attack (2) and (3) with Heroic Surge and Marvelous Surge, the over all number of attacks is reduced except when you Surge. I know this will probably get some pushback, and I haven't looked at the numbers to see how much impact it has, so I am not certain about that aspect.

As far as number of attacks go, with action surge you double, giving you four attacks when used for attacking.
Heroic surge would give you six attacks if you used both additional actions for attacking.
Marvelous surge would give you eight attacks if you used all actions for attacking.

7. Improved Critical. This might come online too late, and I was thinking of putting Extra Attack (2) there instead. Thoughts?

8. Turn the Tide. I really wanted some sort of shenanigan here which was not combat, but this was all I could think of...

9. Legendary Resistance. At this point, I really think Indomitable should become automatic. Personally, I'd rather see that than just more uses of Indomitable, but if you feel otherwise let me know.

That's it for draft one. I am hoping these changes help in the exploration (remarkable athlete and changes to surging features) and social (proficiencies and languages from many leagues) pillars, as well as grant some abilities that rival low level spells.

So, what, if anything, is too strong? I know this won't be nearly enough for people who want a Superheroic class, but maybe it will close the gap somewhat?

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Maybe I missed something, but it seems to me like this proposal makes the fighter overall worse in combat at higher levels, which is actually the OG fighter's singular strong suit, without actually doing much to address the real issues that a high level fighter faces.

My biggest gripe with this is the removal of the 3rd and 4th extra attack. Sure, a fighter still gets the same number of attacks when action surging, but that 1/SR. The rest of the time an 11+ fighter will lose damage. Even getting Martial Maneuvers and Improved Critical by default won't make up for it, IMO (if it did, getting those before 11+ would make the fighter seriously OP prior to level 11).

I generally like the change to action surge. Extra actions have real potential for shenanigans, and building on that at higher levels is a step in the right direction. However, I would leave higher level extra attacks in place and just restrict Action Surge to only two uses of the Attack action. Alternately, you could keep this close to the OG fighter by restricting extra attack to once per turn.

Many Leagues and Remarkable Athlete are steps in the right direction, but too limited. If they scaled at higher levels, maybe...

I like Legendary Resistance, though I don't think it's explicitly necessary. It's more like a quality of life improvement.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Maybe I missed something, but it seems to me like this proposal makes the fighter overall worse in combat at higher levels, which is actually the OG fighter's singular strong suit, without actually doing much to address the real issues that a high level fighter faces.

My biggest gripe with this is the removal of the 3rd and 4th extra attack. Sure, a fighter still gets the same number of attacks when action surging, but that 1/SR. The rest of the time an 11+ fighter will lose damage. Even getting Martial Maneuvers and Improved Critical by default won't make up for it, IMO (if it did, getting those before 11+ would make the fighter seriously OP prior to level 11).

I generally like the change to action surge. Extra actions have real potential for shenanigans, and building on that at higher levels is a step in the right direction. However, I would leave higher level extra attacks in place and just restrict Action Surge to only two uses of the Attack action. Alternately, you could keep this close to the OG fighter by restricting extra attack to once per turn.

Many Leagues and Remarkable Athlete are steps in the right direction, but too limited. If they scaled at higher levels, maybe...

I like Legendary Resistance, though I don't think it's explicitly necessary. It's more like a quality of life improvement.

Suggestions noted. Gracias!

Extra Attacks (2) and (3) are big things, certainly, but (3) only comes online at level 20. What if I replaced Improved Critical with Extra Attack (2)??

 

[Krachek]

Simple hint :

Give one less skill for full caster, half caster.
Give one more skill or expertise later in progression for martial classes.

Give one more extra attack somewhere between level 7-10 for martial classes.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Suggestions noted. Gracias!

Extra Attacks (2) and (3) are big things, certainly, but (3) only comes online at level 20. What if I replaced Improved Critical with Extra Attack (2)??

I would leave Extra Attack at 11th (because by that point the fighter can use the boost) and swap Improved Crit with Heroic Surge, if you're inclined to go that route.

IMO, the fighter still needs more at 11+ to give them impact (that isn't reliant on DM generosity). One option would be to give them followers like they used to get. The real trick there is to do so without making it a management nightmare. If organizing your troops is more complicated than organizing a spell book, it's more complicated than it ought to be, IMO. If followers were as easy to use and manage as spells, I don't think that would have fallen out of favor.

You can, of course, still have as complicated domain management in your campaign as you can handle, which anyone (including fighters) could engage with. However, if it's granted as a class feature it should be overwhelmingly net positive, rather than a persistent hassle (as it could be in the olden days, depending on the DM's temperament).