D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[Micah Sweet]

As for the social pillars of the game? As a DM, use common sense and don't be a slave to mechanics. A high level Champion Fighter would be a rockstar hero of the the lands. Who cares what the Charisma score is or whether or not the Bard has expertise in Persuasion? Or the Wizard has Charm Person? I see too many DMs call for skill checks sometimes when it just doesn't make sense... High level "mundane" types would naturally be the heroes that the common folk identify with the most and trust the most as natural leaders.

It seems that if the DM can take it away or not use it, some people don't think it counts.

 

[Lanefan]

If seeking parity, you don't necessarily need to rein the wizard in. It's just as easy to elevate the fighter.

Easier, in fact, but also IMO the worse option; in that the last thing the game needs is more power creep. Unlike some here, I'm not looking to end up with a supers game with swords.

IMO, it's as simple as allowing the high level fighter pick their own magic items. There are a various ways to flavor this:

1. The fighter gains such powers inherently.
1a. Exposure to the blood of all the monsters slain imbues them.
1b. The fighter's growing legend imbues them with power.
1c. The fighter unlocks mystical techniques that are far beyond the scope of lesser fighters.
2. The fighter gets to pick their own magic items.
2a. The fighter's legendary status could imbue the items with power.
2b. The fighter might attract an artificer follower who is eager to craft bespoke items for the fighter.
2c. The fighter crafts/recovers items in their downtime, much like the wizard researches spells for when they level up.

Some interesting ideas here for those that want to boost high-level warriors a bit.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Easier, in fact, but also IMO the worse option; in that the last thing the game needs is more power creep. Unlike some here, I'm not looking to end up with a supers game with swords.

Some interesting ideas here for those that want to boost high-level warriors a bit.

It's not power creep to raise a weaker class closer to the power ceiling, unless you exceed that ceiling. IMO, you'd have to go completely nuts to push the fighter past the power ceiling of the wizard. My suggestions aren't intended to make the fighter equal to the wizard. They're just intended so that the fighter is playing in the same ballpark as the wizard (even if the DM hasn't been generous with magic items).

 

[lingual]

It seems that if the DM can take it away or not use it, some people don't think it counts.

Hmmm... Can't the DM basically take or give anything they want?

Just thinking of that, I'm glad that the ppl I play with are either less knowledgeable than me or cool and understand that I make a lot of rulings on the fly that make sense (for me at least). For example, the 20th level Dwarf Champion fighter with 10 Charisma actually has more "Persuasion" in Moria than the generic half elf 2nd Level Bard with expertise. I might make bonuses and numbers in my head on the fly too but I'm not sure rules-lawyer/mechanically that the Champion Dwarf would actually hold any sway over the people he has saved countless times.

 

[lingual]

It's not power creep to raise a weaker class closer to the power ceiling, unless you exceed that ceiling. IMO, you'd have to go completely nuts to push the fighter past the power ceiling of the wizard. My suggestions aren't intended to make the fighter equal to the wizard. They're just intended so that the fighter is playing in the same ballpark as the wizard (even if the DM hasn't been generous with magic items).

If every class was raised to the level of the "best" class, wouldn't that be power creep? Not that I mind at all...just buff the boss monsters a bit and give the hobgoblin warlord something fittingly cool too.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That's true, but what I think is central to this discussion is how wizards and fighters were originally both at the mercy of the DM. Wizards for spells, and fighters for magic items. (Granted, wizards were also at the DM's mercy for magic items, but I would argue that as long as they had the right spells, magic items were more a luxury than a necessity for them.) Starting in 3e, wizards gained the ability to choose at least some of their spells, and were therefore no longer dependent on the DM, whereas fighters remained so.

Here's a relevant excerpt from the 2e PHB (I can't seem to locate my 1e PHB at the moment):
PHB 2e, Chapter 7, Page 81, Learning Spells
Whatever the case, your character begins play with a spell book containing up to a few 1st level spells. Your DM will tell you the exact number of spells and which spells they are. As your character adventures, he will have the opportunity to add more spells to his collection.
When your character attains a new level, he may or may not receive new spells. This is up to your DM... How he gets his spells is one of the things your DM decides.
In all cases, before he can add a new spell to his spell book, you will have to check if your character learns that spell.

As you can see, in 2e (and earlier editions) gaining spells was handled pretty much the same way as magic items. The player had no control over what spells they found, or how many, unless the DM was feeling generous. Heck, even if the DM felt generous, you might flub your roll to learn the spell and be SOL until at least next level (when you could try again). Later editions removed those limitations for spells but not for magic items.

4e went the furthest in addressing this imbalance, by giving fighters powerful class abilities at higher levels. If you consider residuum and the optional inherent bonus rules, it effectively solved the issue. However, it's no secret that there were folks that really disliked 4e. That said, just because that implementation didn't work for them, doesn't imply that there is no such implementation that could work for them, except for those that simply hate the idea of potent fighters who aren't reliant on being given magic items by the DM.

Edit:
I will say that the one place I think that 4e fell short, in terms of fighters and magic items, was limiting the scope of magic items. Magic items in 4e could add the depth that fighters needed, allowing them to damage monsters with resistance and keeping their numbers where they ought to in order to be effective. However, they were somewhat limited in adding breadth. In other words, new and interesting abilities that enabled the fighter to do things that would otherwise be completely outside their typical purview. Unfortunately, fighter class powers were also fairly constrained in this respect, with epic destinies being the one area where the designers seemed to relax those restrictions.

remember things like Haste ageing you a year, and other effects like that.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It is so funny you should draw that parallel since Thursday night it came up between one of my players and me in conversation.

I wonder how people who have issues with fighters vs. wizards here would handle soldiers vs. jedi there?

if you show in the book "Fighters are weaker then wizards" (or in this example soldiers are weaker then jedi) I could be okay with it in the short term... but I wouldn't want to play in that system for long.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I've played three different Star Wars RPGs in my time (West End, d20, EotE) and I can tell you nobody has figured out how to balance being the best pilot or a cunning diplomat or even a badass bounty hunter in head-to-toe armor with the guy who can move things with his mind, jump incredible distances, deflect Lazer bolts, or trick guards into letting them go. you either the up running all-Jedi, no Jedi, or accept Luke/Rey is going to steal the spotlight in a lot of situations.

yup. Imagine playing out Empire... everyone gets there but kicked, but 1 character is getting trained in new powers while the others RP through sneaking around... then get captured and superman has to come save lois and jimmy

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In 1e at least, a DM starting you out with just those spells is doing it wrong. You've got a defensive spell and two miscellaneous, but no offensive spell; and you're supposed to start with four including at least one of each type.

in2e we used all sorts of house rules but one I loved was to give the entire universal school (from the spell compendiums) 1st-9th level spells and 3 other 1st and 2 other 2nd level spells and give those out as spell books but take away the 'auto get spells at level up' and made the wizards have to reserch or find spells after that.

Also, while a DM can pick and choose spells I think it works better if the spells are random - i.e. let the dice choose, reflecting what your trainers happened to teach you in magic school.

that I didn't like so much. Although I wouldn't mind starting random with some manipulating to make things work

Now if you specifically want a fire mage maybe the DM might skew the odds in favour of you starting out with Burning Hands...or maybe she leaves it to chance and if you don't happen to get it, finding it might become a potential adventure hook for you for later.

 

[Lanefan]

It's not power creep to raise a weaker class closer to the power ceiling, unless you exceed that ceiling. IMO, you'd have to go completely nuts to push the fighter past the power ceiling of the wizard. My suggestions aren't intended to make the fighter equal to the wizard. They're just intended so that the fighter is playing in the same ballpark as the wizard (even if the DM hasn't been generous with magic items).

If wizard is an 8 and fighter is a 4 (average 6), raising the fighter to 6 raises the average to 7; and that's power creep.