D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

How to best help Fighters get shenanigans to bridge the gap to Wizards?


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I think the design goals of "gritty and attrition-based" and "fighters that get to feel awesome" are fundamentally incompatible. That said, there's at least one daily resource all classes have in common: hit points (and hit dice). Sure, fighters get to recover some once per short rest with Second Wind, but Second Wind scales really poorly.

Also, IME it is rare for the recovery rate of enemies to be relevant. It doesn't matter if the bandits recover their resources on a short or a long rest, because they're dead after the encounter.
This last is a key point: it could be my imagination but I get a sense the dynamic - both player-side at the table and backroom-side at the design level - has changed over the editions from combat being risky (the party could win, tie, or lose) to combat being a foregone conclusion (the party will win). It's gone from war to sport, in other words.

If you're using an attrition-based setup then enemy recovery rates can become very relevant in situations where you can't or don't defeat them all in one go; when you're nibbling at the edges of a village/castle/dungeon/camp too big for you to take on all at once, for example. Why? Because while you're nibbling at them, with any luck they in turn are nibbling at you, with each group slowly weakening the other as the days go by.

Overly-generous recovery for just the PCs makes this model moot, while overly-generous recovery for everyone makes it a bit farcical.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
That's true, but what I think is central to this discussion is how wizards and fighters were originally both at the mercy of the DM. Wizards for spells, and fighters for magic items. (Granted, wizards were also at the DM's mercy for magic items, but I would argue that as long as they had the right spells, magic items were more a luxury than a necessity for them.) Starting in 3e, wizards gained the ability to choose at least some of their spells, and were therefore no longer dependent on the DM, whereas fighters remained so.

Here's a relevant excerpt from the 2e PHB (I can't seem to locate my 1e PHB at the moment):
PHB 2e, Chapter 7, Page 81, Learning Spells
Whatever the case, your character begins play with a spell book containing up to a few 1st level spells. Your DM will tell you the exact number of spells and which spells they are. As your character adventures, he will have the opportunity to add more spells to his collection.
When your character attains a new level, he may or may not receive new spells. This is up to your DM... How he gets his spells is one of the things your DM decides.
In all cases, before he can add a new spell to his spell book, you will have to check if your character learns that spell.


As you can see, in 2e (and earlier editions) gaining spells was handled pretty much the same way as magic items. The player had no control over what spells they found, or how many, unless the DM was feeling generous. Heck, even if the DM felt generous, you might flub your roll to learn the spell and be SOL until at least next level (when you could try again). Later editions removed those limitations for spells but not for magic items.

4e went the furthest in addressing this imbalance, by giving fighters powerful class abilities at higher levels. If you consider residuum and the optional inherent bonus rules, it effectively solved the issue. However, it's no secret that there were folks that really disliked 4e. That said, just because that implementation didn't work for them, doesn't imply that there is no such implementation that could work for them, except for those that simply hate the idea of potent fighters who aren't reliant on being given magic items by the DM.

Edit:
I will say that the one place I think that 4e fell short, in terms of fighters and magic items, was limiting the scope of magic items. Magic items in 4e could add the depth that fighters needed, allowing them to damage monsters with resistance and keeping their numbers where they ought to in order to be effective. However, they were somewhat limited in adding breadth. In other words, new and interesting abilities that enabled the fighter to do things that would otherwise be completely outside their typical purview. Unfortunately, fighter class powers were also fairly constrained in this respect, with epic destinies being the one area where the designers seemed to relax those restrictions.
I would actually love it if the game went back to having wizards have difficulty sourcing spells. It would level the playing field a good deal, without actually removing anything a wizard could do before. Shame that WotC would never go for it.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
I would actually love it if the game went back to having wizards have difficulty sourcing spells. It would level the playing field a good deal, without actually removing anything a wizard could do before. Shame that WotC would never go for it.
Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers. I'm not sure nerfing Wizards Spell sourcing ability would really solve the problem given all the other full casters that either just learn spells with no scrolls or get to prepare spell from their whole class list.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I've played three different Star Wars RPGs in my time (West End, d20, EotE) and I can tell you nobody has figured out how to balance being the best pilot or a cunning diplomat or even a badass bounty hunter in head-to-toe armor with the guy who can move things with his mind, jump incredible distances, deflect Lazer bolts, or trick guards into letting them go. you either the up running all-Jedi, no Jedi, or accept Luke/Rey is going to steal the spotlight in a lot of situations.
I always thought Fantasy Flight's version of the game did a pretty good job of it.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers. I'm not sure nerfing Wizards Spell sourcing ability would really solve the problem given all the other full casters that either just learn spells with no scrolls or get to prepare spell from their whole class list.
I'd take "Wizards" here to include all arcane casters, which covers Sorcerers.

Clerics and Druids aren't the same problem now they were in 3e, as far as I can tell.

Bards - well, while I very much like the concept of Bards in general as a class in the game I'm not at all sold on their being full casters on par with Clerics and Wizards and very much not sold on their using the same casting mechanics. I'd prefer them to have a dash of fighter, a dash of thief/rogue, their own unique game-mechanical subsystem for their musical/sonic effects, and a lot of persuasion and charm; with their primary combat role being one of support rather than personal damage-dealing.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Did they walk around on that asteroid with the mynocks while wearing only a gas mask? :p
They walked around inside a giant space-slugs mouth, which apparently was sufficient enough heat and atmosphere to walk around in with just a breath filter. The only character who ever was out in the cold vacuum of space and lived was Leia in Episode 8, and she used her super-special-magical-birthright powers to do that.
I always thought Fantasy Flight's version of the game did a pretty good job of it.
It was the least egregious, but I still found that no matter how much sunk-cost you put into learning the Force, you end up with far more "Shenanigans" than any non-Force user can accomplish. It doesn't matter how good you are at piloting, if Luke is the only one who can use the Force to hit a thermal exhaust port two-meters wide, you aren't the best pilot.

But that's the point; if Luke could use the Force to accomplish exactly what anyone else can do, the Force ain't all the special. The Force, like magic, is magical because it does allow for things normal people can't do. If you want to do those things, you need to either learn magic (have some source of power that makes you supernatural) or use technology (magic in the form of items you can use) to level that playing field.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
I would actually love it if the game went back to having wizards have difficulty sourcing spells. It would level the playing field a good deal, without actually removing anything a wizard could do before. Shame that WotC would never go for it.
I don't actually consider that to be a great solution, though it is a (possibly) equitable one.

With the right DM I can admittedly see it playing fine. However, if the DM is (for example) generous with spells but stingy with magic items, you end up right back where we are now. It leaves a lot of leeway with respect to the experience of playing the game.

Plus, I enjoy being able to create characters that I envision. If I conceive of a fire mage, but the DM feels like giving me Detect Magic, Alarm, and Tenser's Disk, that just doesn't mesh well with how I like to play. I don't need to be in control of everything regarding my character, just enough.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I don't actually consider that to be a great solution, though it is a (possibly) equitable one.

With the right DM I can admittedly see it playing fine. However, if the DM is (for example) generous with spells but stingy with magic items, you end up right back where we are now. It leaves a lot of leeway with respect to the experience of playing the game.

Plus, I enjoy being able to create characters that I envision. If I conceive of a fire mage, but the DM feels like giving me Detect Magic, Alarm, and Tenser's Disk, that just doesn't mesh well with how I like to play. I don't need to be in control of everything regarding my character, just enough.
In the case of matching your vision, you talk to your DM. Let them know what you want to do and they'll probably help you out somewhat. But I understand that some people don't like trusting the person who runs their game.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Plus, I enjoy being able to create characters that I envision. If I conceive of a fire mage, but the DM feels like giving me Detect Magic, Alarm, and Tenser's Disk, that just doesn't mesh well with how I like to play. I don't need to be in control of everything regarding my character, just enough.
In 1e at least, a DM starting you out with just those spells is doing it wrong. :) You've got a defensive spell and two miscellaneous, but no offensive spell; and you're supposed to start with four including at least one of each type.

Also, while a DM can pick and choose spells I think it works better if the spells are random - i.e. let the dice choose, reflecting what your trainers happened to teach you in magic school. Now if you specifically want a fire mage maybe the DM might skew the odds in favour of you starting out with Burning Hands...or maybe she leaves it to chance and if you don't happen to get it, finding it might become a potential adventure hook for you for later. :)
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
In the case of matching your vision, you talk to your DM. Let them know what you want to do and they'll probably help you out somewhat. But I understand that some people don't like trusting the person who runs their game.

In 1e at least, a DM starting you out with just those spells is doing it wrong. :) You've got a defensive spell and two miscellaneous, but no offensive spell; and you're supposed to start with four including at least one of each type.

Also, while a DM can pick and choose spells I think it works better if the spells are random - i.e. let the dice choose, reflecting what your trainers happened to teach you in magic school. Now if you specifically want a fire mage maybe the DM might skew the odds in favour of you starting out with Burning Hands...or maybe she leaves it to chance and if you don't happen to get it, finding it might become a potential adventure hook for you for later. :)

Don't get me wrong, I could see it being fun for a one-off campaign. Much like I wouldn't object to playing a pregen in the right campaign.

However, it's not my preferred style. I like to create my character and play my character. The DM has so much power in a typical game, but as I see it the PC is the one refuge of the player. Hence why I'm more in favor of giving players expanded control over their character concept (ie, by making magic items inherent to the fighter class at higher levels), rather than removing control (by having the DM decide their spells for them).
 

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