D&D 5E How to "fix" (or at least help) the fighter/wizard dynamic. (+)

[MichaelSomething]

If wizard is an 8 and fighter is a 4 (average 6), raising the fighter to 6 raises the average to 7; and that's power creep.

When it comes to gaming, people seem to generally prefer buffing things over nerfing...

 

[Fanaelialae]

If every class was raised to the level of the "best" class, wouldn't that be power creep? Not that I mind at all...just buff the boss monsters a bit and give the hobgoblin warlord something fittingly cool too.

If wizard is an 8 and fighter is a 4 (average 6), raising the fighter to 6 raises the average to 7; and that's power creep.

It isn't. Power creep is something that invalidates older options, by offering better options.

You can already run 2 wizards in the same party (making the average of that combination an 8). If the best party combination average is an 8, then the only way to power creep the game would be to boost a party combination over 8.

An example of something that could very easily power creep the fighter would be creating a new mythic class, making it "pointless" to play a fighter if the mythic class is simply a superior fighter. If the mythic class serves every role that a fighter can, but is also an 8, then the fighter has been power crept. The only reason to play a fighter at that point is because you want to, despite it being a clearly inferior choice. That's power creep, and it's also one of the reasons why I don't support the idea of adding a mythic class.

If your player always run fighters, then sure, you could say that the change power crept your home game. That doesn't, however, mean that the game itself was power crept by the change.

 

[DND_Reborn]

If wizard is an 8 and fighter is a 4 (average 6), raising the fighter to 6 raises the average to 7; and that's power creep.

That assumes the power was already balanced, though. While still "creep", you are getting to a more even level, not exceeding it, which I think most people would really term as "power creep".

 

[Aldarc]

Despite the often rapid advance of PCs leveling in 5E, my assumption was always that the wizard is studying, etc. during any free time (not necessarily "downtime") they have, so when they level the "figure out" the spells they have been working on--which are the two they choose.

I like the idea that a wizard does not have a mostly blank spellbook, but, rather, they have inherited a spellbook filled with a bunch of encoded esoteric spells, notes in the margins, and arcane sketches. On one level the player is picking the spells that are in the spellbook for their wizard, but what's really is happening in the fiction is that the wizard has finally gained the insight to decipher or figure out the spells that are in their spellbook. They can add more spells to their spellbook, but the two per level up spells reflect the pre-existing spells in their book.

When it comes to gaming, people seem to generally prefer buffing things over nerfing...

(1) This also tends to lead to power creep. (2) This is easier to do in an electronic game than a pen-and-paper game designed mostly around books.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I like the idea that a wizard does not have a mostly blank spellbook, but, rather, they have inherited a spellbook filled with a bunch of encoded esoteric spells, notes in the margins, and arcane sketches. On one level the player is picking the spells that are in the spellbook for their wizard, but what's really is happening in the fiction is that the wizard has finally gained the insight to decipher or figure out the spells that are in their spellbook. They can add more spells to their spellbook, but the two per level up spells reflect the pre-existing spells in their book.

I think that works perfectly fine as well. It fosters another interesting idea:

A wizard's spell books (magically?) contains the formula for all spells, but the wizard's ability doesn't allow them to understand most of those spells until experience and capability allow them to do so. The two they learn when leveling could represent spells they have been studying more intently and finally figure out.

Finding scrolls or other sources offers additional insights into the spells, allowing them to master more than two per level.

 

[DND_Reborn]

When it comes to gaming, people seem to generally prefer buffing things over nerfing...

Very interesting video! Thanks for sharing!

However, I must agree such things are much easier in video games. My group has discussed changes we would LOVE to do, but are too complex to make it worth tracking by hand--a computer would be able to do it all in less than the blink of an eye.

 

[Aldarc]

Very interesting video! Thanks for sharing!

However, I must agree such things are much easier in video games. My group has discussed changes we would LOVE to do, but are too complex to make it worth tracking by hand--a computer would be able to do it all in less than the blink of an eye.

Electronic game developers can also mass track performance issues related to the game, such as damage output, a character/class's win rate, game bugs, and a wide variety of other complexities.

 

[DND_Reborn]

UPDATE: 1ST DRAFT

Below is a first attempt to help with some of the issues raised. I know it doesn't hit all the points, but hopefully it is a good start.

My concern is if this makes the fighter too strong? So, please get any feedback you have.

Design Choices. I borrowed heavily from Champion and Battle Master, so those subclasses could be updated. In looking at the class, Fighters don't gain a lot IMO from the core class. You might feel differently.

1. Fighting Style. Allowing Fighters more styles allows for greater versatility. By linking it to Intelligence, it also helps for people who feel fighters should get something from brains as well as brawn.

2. Second Wind. Increased number of uses per day. Also an option to be used with your reaction, allowing you to stay up if a hit would take you to 0 hp. I would do either/or, not both so I am interested in your thoughts.

3. Martial Maneuvers. A number of people suggested allowing all fighters access to Battle Master maneuvers, to increase tactical versatility and effectiveness. I removed the die roll by making the bonus equal to your proficiency bonus and the number of dice also equal to the same. This is fairly close to what Battle Masters would get anyway without the added complexity.

4. Many Leagues. (This is meant to help with exploration and social pillars.) I got this idea about soldiers marching, etc. and being sent to different lands. History represents the knowledge gained about other places, and Insight and extra languages about the creatures you encounter. Advantage on forced marches just made sense but probably won't be used much.

5. Remarkable Athlete. (Expertise in Athletics will help with exploration somewhat.) Proficiency/Expertise just makes sense and should have been part of the feature from the beginning. I've included additional options I like, but certainly can't use all of them LOL. If you have any preferences or other suggestions, let me know!

6. Action Surge/ Heroic Surge/ Marvelous Surge. Action Surge still allows you to take another action. However, I thought this could represent the extra effort you could put forth into other physical acts. You can certainly use Action Surge to Dash again, doubling your distance, but the feature is also meant to be able to double your jumps. You can also use it to double your lift capacity for the turn, representing exception feats of Strength (adrenaline, etc.). Since I have replaced Extra Attack (2) and (3) with Heroic Surge and Marvelous Surge, the over all number of attacks is reduced except when you Surge. I know this will probably get some pushback, and I haven't looked at the numbers to see how much impact it has, so I am not certain about that aspect.

As far as number of attacks go, with action surge you double, giving you four attacks when used for attacking.
Heroic surge would give you six attacks if you used both additional actions for attacking.
Marvelous surge would give you eight attacks if you used all actions for attacking.

7. Improved Critical. This might come online too late, and I was thinking of putting Extra Attack (2) there instead. Thoughts?

8. Turn the Tide. I really wanted some sort of shenanigan here which was not combat, but this was all I could think of...

9. Legendary Resistance. At this point, I really think Indomitable should become automatic. Personally, I'd rather see that than just more uses of Indomitable, but if you feel otherwise let me know.

That's it for draft one. I am hoping these changes help in the exploration (remarkable athlete and changes to surging features) and social (proficiencies and languages from many leagues) pillars, as well as grant some abilities that rival low level spells.

So, what, if anything, is too strong? I know this won't be nearly enough for people who want a Superheroic class, but maybe it will close the gap somewhat?

 

[Remathilis]

UPDATE: 1ST DRAFT

Below is a first attempt to help with some of the issues raised. I know it doesn't hit all the points, but hopefully it is a good start.

My concern is if this makes the fighter too strong? So, please get any feedback you have.

Design Choices. I borrowed heavily from Champion and Battle Master, so those subclasses could be updated. In looking at the class, Fighters don't gain a lot IMO from the core class. You might feel differently.

1. Fighting Style. Allowing Fighters more styles allows for greater versatility. By linking it to Intelligence, it also helps for people who feel fighters should get something from brains as well as brawn.

2. Second Wind. Increased number of uses per day. Also an option to be used with your reaction, allowing you to stay up if a hit would take you to 0 hp. I would do either/or, not both so I am interested in your thoughts.

3. Martial Maneuvers. A number of people suggested allowing all fighters access to Battle Master maneuvers, to increase tactical versatility and effectiveness. I removed the die roll by making the bonus equal to your proficiency bonus and the number of dice also equal to the same. This is fairly close to what Battle Masters would get anyway without the added complexity.

4. Many Leagues. (This is meant to help with exploration and social pillars.) I got this idea about soldiers marching, etc. and being sent to different lands. History represents the knowledge gained about other places, and Insight and extra languages about the creatures you encounter. Advantage on forced marches just made sense but probably won't be used much.

5. Remarkable Athlete. (Expertise in Athletics will help with exploration somewhat.) Proficiency/Expertise just makes sense and should have been part of the feature from the beginning. I've included additional options I like, but certainly can't use all of them LOL. If you have any preferences or other suggestions, let me know!

6. Action Surge/ Heroic Surge/ Marvelous Surge. Action Surge still allows you to take another action. However, I thought this could represent the extra effort you could put forth into other physical acts. You can certainly use Action Surge to Dash again, doubling your distance, but the feature is also meant to be able to double your jumps. You can also use it to double your lift capacity for the turn, representing exception feats of Strength (adrenaline, etc.). Since I have replaced Extra Attack (2) and (3) with Heroic Surge and Marvelous Surge, the over all number of attacks is reduced except when you Surge. I know this will probably get some pushback, and I haven't looked at the numbers to see how much impact it has, so I am not certain about that aspect.

As far as number of attacks go, with action surge you double, giving you four attacks when used for attacking.
Heroic surge would give you six attacks if you used both additional actions for attacking.
Marvelous surge would give you eight attacks if you used all actions for attacking.

7. Improved Critical. This might come online too late, and I was thinking of putting Extra Attack (2) there instead. Thoughts?

8. Turn the Tide. I really wanted some sort of shenanigan here which was not combat, but this was all I could think of...

9. Legendary Resistance. At this point, I really think Indomitable should become automatic. Personally, I'd rather see that than just more uses of Indomitable, but if you feel otherwise let me know.

That's it for draft one. I am hoping these changes help in the exploration (remarkable athlete and changes to surging features) and social (proficiencies and languages from many leagues) pillars, as well as grant some abilities that rival low level spells.

So, what, if anything, is too strong? I know this won't be nearly enough for people who want a Superheroic class, but maybe it will close the gap somewhat?

View attachment 151389

Interesting idea, but I would lean the opposite way into it.

I like superiority dice. Rangers get Hunter's Mark (extra dice), Paladin's get smite (extra dice), Fighter's should get superiority dice. The pool should be akin to the # of spells those two classes get: enough you feel comfortable using them each encounter, but not necessarily each round.

In my hypothetical fighter rebuild, they use SD to fuel their many of class functions. You get your classic battlemaster maneuvers (disarming attack, feinting attack, lunging attack, etc) as well as a few "hardwired" abilities that can't be taken via feats (such as second wind using SD). Basically, whenever the game gives fighter's a bonus, it should be an SD.

However, whenever they gain a new action, that's separate. So things like Indomitable/Legendary Resistance or Action Surge are keyed off uses/day. I'd also keep the 2/3/4 attack progression if possible. I'd probably fold the crit bonus in as well, and I'd spread out extra fighting styles over the levels rather than a flat Int/bonus at first level (way too tempting to multi-class dip)

As a final design point: don't give free proficiencies at higher level. It signals to a character "your class demands you have this skill, but its best if you wait to take it" If I was building one of your fighters, I'd deliberately avoid taking History, Insight and Athletics because I know I'll get them later (with Expertise to boot). So, for 5-7 levels, my character would be scrub at those skills, and then remarkably become equal to the rogue who had expertise in them on level-up? I don't think that's the design choice you want to make. Either grant free proficiencies early (and then expertise later) OR do something that adds a non-proficiency bonus (such as using SD on skill checks) that doesn't make someone NOT want to pick proficiency with it.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Thanks for the feedback!

Interesting idea, but I would lean the opposite way into it.

I like superiority dice. Rangers get Hunter's Mark (extra dice), Paladin's get smite (extra dice), Fighter's should get superiority dice. The pool should be akin to the # of spells those two classes get: enough you feel comfortable using them each encounter, but not necessarily each round.

Personally, I find tracking dice to fiddly so prefer a static bonus that is based on level. Hunter's Mark is only when cast, Smites are spell slots which are tracked anyway. But if more feedback supports your design choice, I have no problem updating the design to the preferred choice.

However, whenever they gain a new action, that's separate. So things like Indomitable/Legendary Resistance or Action Surge are keyed off uses/day. I'd also keep the 2/3/4 attack progression if possible. I'd probably fold the crit bonus in as well, and I'd spread out extra fighting styles over the levels rather than a flat Int/bonus at first level (way too tempting to multi-class dip)

I was worried that the combination of escalating surges with escalating extra attacks would be too much.

Do you like the idea of surging allowing you to perform more impressive physical actions?

I also thought about spreading out the fighting styles. In our current homebrew we have 4 fighting styles over the 20 levels, but also have advanced fighting styles and master fighting styles.

As a final design point: don't give free proficiencies at higher level. It signals to a character "your class demands you have this skill, but its best if you wait to take it" If I was building one of your fighters, I'd deliberately avoid taking History, Insight and Athletics because I know I'll get them later (with Expertise to boot). So, for 5-7 levels, my character would be scrub at those skills, and then remarkably become equal to the rogue who had expertise in them on level-up? I don't think that's the design choice you want to make. Either grant free proficiencies early (and then expertise later) OR do something that adds a non-proficiency bonus (such as using SD on skill checks) that doesn't make someone NOT want to pick proficiency with it.

Many Leagues only grants expertise if you already have proficiency, so I could change Remarkable Athlete to do the same thing. But yeah, I have never been a big fan of it for the reason you point out.

I don't like giving out free proficiencies at level 1, personally, and IME history isn't taken often at all, and Insight only rarely, by fighters, so I don't mind granting those at higher levels. Athletics is really the only stand out in that sense...

Again, thanks for your input and I am anxious to see what other have to say. Hopefully when all this is done we'll have something people can use to help.