Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Justice and Rule]

Again this is just too absolutist in my opinion. You clearly see a range of views on OA, even among people who say it has problems. Not everyone agrees it is racist. Not everyone even agrees if it is problematic. Some people are going to look at OA and say, it has issues, but they reflect the times, and it doesn't rise to racism. Some will say it does rise to racism. Some will leave it at problematic. Some will say there is a difference between stereotypical tropes and racism. Some people are going to give more weight to intent than others (most people here seem to feel Zeb Cook's intentions were good). You are going to have different opinions about this because we are all different, and we all are taking slightly different lenses to it. Disagreeing on our analysis of OA, doesn't mean people disagree on whether real world racism towards asian people is bad, it means we have different sensibilities on media. And hashing out these things does matter people people are talking both about what ought to be done about OA, and what ought to be done/ought to be permissible, for creators going forward. If we get to a point where everyone must always agree with conclusion X....I don't know that seems like a bad place to be to me.

And this is just too wishy-washy in my opinion. At a certain point you can just come down and say "Yeah, this was racist". Obviously not everyone will agree with it, but it seems there is a fairly wide consensus on the matter. Constantly harping on how "We can't just say this because we all don't agree" misses that there can come to a common agreement at some level on these, and I'm not sure how we haven't reached that level with OA yet.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Again, this isn't really a thing. Anything that we would consider racist now was racist back whenever. It was never okay, and how deeply embedded that idea was in the historical period of time is irrelevant.

This,is the most incorrect thing I have read in this thread.

Context matters. This is such a simple point I can’t believe I have to say it. But a person from a group can use a slur and have it be empowering (reclaim it) or a word can have different meanings depending on time and location (UK as opposed to American English for instance).

I see a lot of demand to listen, but precious little actual discussion.

 

[Bedrockgames]

And this is just too wishy-washy in my opinion. At a certain point you can just come down and say "Yeah, this was racist". Obviously not everyone will agree with it, but it seems there is a fairly wide consensus on the matter. Constantly harping on how "We can't just say this because we all don't agree" misses that there can come to a common agreement at some level on these, and I'm not sure how we haven't reached that level with OA yet.

I don't think there is wide consensus. I think there is a lot of disagreement over how much of a problem it is. You can call it wishy washy, but it isn't like OA is some kind of racist manifesto. People are going to have different responses to how the tropes are handled. And again, even among the people who are saying it has problems there is clearly a difference between those labeling problematic, stereotypical and racist.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Is there anything offensive enough for someone to deserve to be deplatformed ever?

Probably. But as it gets used in todays climate? No. I am not a fan of how deplatforming and cancel culture tend to get applied (which is usually to exaggerate a person's offense, pressure a platform to remove them, and tar anyone who even likes, agrees, or defends them with the same). I don't support social ostracization, and I don't support taking away a person's livelihood (especially given how dangerous it can be for a person in a country with a weak social safety net). I am not going to say never because I can imagine scenarios where someone is using a platform to stalk someone, or engineer violence against a person. But as I've seen it used in the hobby, on twitter, etc? I think it brings out the worst in us, makes us more tribal and weakens our ability to engage one another.

 

[Thomas Shey]

This is really a whole other topic I think (quite a few of those in this thread). But I think with cancel culture, it also doesn't have to be conclusive to be a canceling. Most people are not going to be completely eradicated from an industry, social media space or a fandom. But they will be ostracized, have their reputation damaged, be lied about, their reach reduced, have their offenses exaggerated, be psychologically impacted, and potentially have their professional life in other industries impacted. Most game designers are not doing this full time, so they can likely weather a cancelation attempt unless they get removed from a major platform. But once your name has been dragged through the mud by a cancelation attempt, that is the sort of thing people search for when they hire people.

"Cancel culture" is a term that's gotten so weaponized I don't think its a useful term; the term is applied when other people do it, ignored when people you agree with do.

The issue is, however, that brigading is absolutely a thing, and it isn't limited to one particular political philosophy or position. And once it gets rolling, it can be enough of a problem that if you're in a position it can get aimed at you, you, again, absolutely have a reason to be concerned because there are too many people out there who, once they decide you're on the wrong side of things, won't show a lot of restraint on what they'll go do. It doesn't take a whole lot of cases of doxing or other harassment before some serious chilling effect sets in.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This isn't about reasonableness. It's about listening. There are probably a ton of things out there that I would never consider racist myself, and would be surprised to learn they are. But rather than continue to argue my uninformed opinion, I listen to the people who are affected by it, and that is how we learn.

I am not against listening. I listen to lots of people, and lots of points of view. But you seem to be suggesting if someone listens, that means they must just automatically agree with what they are hearing, or if they listen, they must reach the same exact conclusion you have about the issue. Life and art are way more complicated than that.

 

[Gradine]

No. In many cases that is correct. But the meaning of words in context absolutely matters.

This,is the most incorrect thing I have read in this thread.

Context matters. This is such a simple point I can’t believe I have to say it. But a person from a group can use a slur and have it be empowering (reclaim it) or a word can have different meanings depending on time and location (UK as opposed to American, for instance).

Context world matter if we were litigating the authors of the work, because it would speak to their personal intent and therefore character. I don't think anyone is impugning the character of the authors.

An object, like a book, does not have intent. It can simply only have impact, and that is what we're talking about. This is what I mean when I say questions or comments about "the time" are irrelevant. We're not in "the time" now so why should anyone care?

The question is not whether "OA" should've been written at all or not, but how we should treat and approach it today. Because today is all that actually relevant to us now.

My answer, if I had not made it clear enough, is "don't".

 

[Gradine]

I am not against listening. I listen to lots of people, and lots of points of view. But you seem to be suggesting if someone listens, that means they must just automatically agree with what they are hearing, or if they listen, they must reach the same exact conclusion you have about the issue. Life and art are way more complicated than that.

If I accidentally step on someone's toes and they tell me it hurts, is it my place to argue whether their injury is real or not?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Context world matter if we were litigating the authors of the work, because it would speak to their personal intent and therefore character. I don't think anyone is impugning the character of the authors.

An object, like a book, does not have intent. It can simply only have impact, and that is what we're talking about. This is what I mean when I say questions or comments about "the time" are irrelevant. We're not in "the time" now so why should anyone care?

The question is not whether "OA" should've been written at all or not, but how we should treat and approach it today. Because today is all that actually relevant to us now.

My answer, if I had not made it clear enough, is "don't".

That‘s insane.

Seriously - we have to get rid of Uncle Tom’s Cabin? The Invisible Man? Anything that isn’t up to your standards?

Your eternal now is not the arbiter of what others think is relevant

 

[Bedrockgames]

"Cancel culture" is a term that's gotten so weaponized I don't think its a useful term; the term is applied when other people do it, ignored when people you agree with do.

The issue is, however, that brigading is absolutely a thing, and it isn't limited to one particular political philosophy or position. And once it gets rolling, it can be enough of a problem that if you're in a position it can get aimed at you, you, again, absolutely have a reason to be concerned because there are too many people out there who, once they decide you're on the wrong side of things, won't show a lot of restraint on what they'll go do. It doesn't take a whole lot of cases of doxing or other harassment before some serious chilling effect sets in.

I do think cancel culture is useful as a term but I understand your point. But either way, whether we are talking about brigading or deplatforming, I am against it no matter what side we are talking about. Again I don't want to take food out of anyone's mouth (whatever their opinion about RPGs or politics). And I don't take pleasure in seeing someone reaping what they sow either. Stuff like doxxing, I don't think is ever acceptable. I think it is very easy when you think the other side is so wrong, to justify to yourself any behavior against them.