D&D General What Happens if a Cleric/Warlock/etc PC Gravely Offends Their Supernatural Patron?

[Jer]

These forums are drowning in cleric/casters overpowered threads. The only thing that keeps pact casters from being overpowered The whole idea of pact magic is a deals a deal. You break the deal it sucks to be you.
It also gives players the ability to split hairs and do exactly what they are told even if it doesn't accomplish the goal or works against the patron. But you take away loss of power if they just flagrantly break the rules it simply gives the PC too much power.

As I said elsewhere I'm willing to believe that I'm wrong on this but in my experience I haven't seen anything broken about the Warlock class if you remove the Patron from the mix entirely. If you have a theoretical Patronless Warlock that has all of the abilities of a Warlock but the Patron never appears in their life to put demands on them, what makes the Warlock overpowered compared to a Wizard or a Sorcerer? I don't see it but I could be wrong!

 

[Vaalingrade]

Here's the deal with attempts to balance via RP restrictions: What if the player is just a naturally obedient person who would never think to step a single toe out of Daddy Patron's line and who will completely willingly derail the game trying to muddle out all the moral traps a DM who thinks RP is a balance will inevitably throw out (because otherwise, how is the issue even coming into play?)

 

[nevin]

As I said elsewhere I'm willing to believe that I'm wrong on this but in my experience I haven't seen anything broken about the Warlock class if you remove the Patron from the mix entirely. If you have a theoretical Patronless Warlock that has al the abilities of a Warlock but the Patron never appears in their life to put demands on them, what makes the Warlock overpowered compared to a Wizard or a Sorcerer? I don't see it but I could be wrong!

Then he not a warlock he's just a weird mage whose stolen power from someone who will want it back.

 

[Cadence]

Here's the deal with attempts to balance via RP restrictions: What if the player is just a naturally obedient person who would never think to step a single toe out of Daddy Patron's line and who will completely willingly derail the game trying to muddle out all the moral traps a DM who thinks RP is a balance will inevitably throw out (because otherwise, how is the issue even coming into play?)

I'm not sure why it would be moral traps. I'd picture the patron once in a while throwing in a side quest, or maybe really liking you not to murder another of the folks on the payroll if it could be avoided? (Or, maybe taking out someone else on the payroll).

 

[Vaalingrade]

Go read any mythology and you'll understand how easy it should be for a cleric to offend their god.

I've been making fun of those weak, insecure dorks like all thread. I think I might have cracked open a copy of Goldfinch's Mythology once or twice.

 

[nevin]

Here's the deal with attempts to balance via RP restrictions: What if the player is just a naturally obedient person who would never think to step a single toe out of Daddy Patron's line and who will completely willingly derail the game trying to muddle out all the moral traps a DM who thinks RP is a balance will inevitably throw out (because otherwise, how is the issue even coming into play?)

That is a DM failure and could be an entirely separate thread about god's and clerics and pact casters, and what not to do as a DM

 

[jmartkdr2]

Then he not a warlock he's just a weird mage whose stolen power from someone who will want it back.

So if the warlock isn't in a position to offend their patron, they're OP?

 

[Vaalingrade]

That is a DM failure and could be an entirely separate thread about god's and clerics and pact casters, and what not to do as a DM

How is it a failure? The cleric just won't have a conflict with their god because of who they are.

 

[Jer]

Then he not a warlock he's just a weird mage whose stolen power from someone who will want it back.

So what you're saying is that it isn't unbalanced at all if the Patron is ignored as an element, it's a narrative element that can be used to further the Warlock character's story?

To me that says that the warlock isn't overpowered if they choose to ignore their Patron and the DM decides to not follow up on it, it's just that a possible story hook for the Warlock character is being ignored (possibly one that the player wants to have explored since they're going out of their way to offend their Patron). That's a very different thing in my mind than a claim that the Warlock class is out of balance if the DM isn't using their Patron to keep them in check.

EDIT: Also there's no reason to believe that a Patronless Warlock has stolen their power. For example, you could use those mechanics to model a character who has had a divine entity imbue the character with power as the celestial dies. Now the "warlock" has the divine power of that entity within them and uses the mechanics of the Celestial patron, but the patron never shows up to demand favors from the warlock because they're dead. The mechanics of that should work and be balanced, and while the player is losing out on one story hook with the loss of the Patron they're gaining some new ones.

 

[nevin]

I'm not sure why it would be moral traps. I'd picture the patron once in a while throwing in a side quest, or maybe really liking you not to murder another of the folks on the payroll if it could be avoided? (Or, maybe taking out someone else on the payroll).

Because you have DM's that love the shades of grey or simply making PCs crawl through the moral field of broken glass. Same ones that love the fallen paladin struggling to regain grace trope. The ones who don't understand that only 1 player in a 100,000 actually enjoys that misery