D&D General Chris just said why I hate wizard/fighter dynamic

[Maxperson]

So a non caster couldn't use trickery, lies and misdirection to achieve a goal? We'll have to contact some politicians.

I tried that and he told me that he couldn't do those things. I believed him.

 

[Maxperson]

Actually, no. The spell explicitly says that the off-target is in a randomly determined compass direction. Last I checked, a compass has no "straight up".

Sure. You go 824 miles straight east........................on a curved planet. There's no down on a compass, either.

 

[FrogReaver]

Sure. You go 824 miles straight east........................on a curved planet. Can't go down on a compass, either.

And if i'm careful and hold my compass just right north shows as the direction nearly right above my head.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And that's just flat out wrong.

Similar locations, say to a castle to warn the king, can pop you into a castle anywhere in the universe that you didn't mean to enter, and whose inhabitants take a dim view of being invaded by a high level caster. Or it could pop you into a ruined castle in front a creature that you can't handle, and without a second teleport to get out again.

Off target can leave you in just about any situation from perfectly safe to in the middle of lava and dead.

Mishap can do any of the above, but you take damage on the way there.

Maybe @GMforPowergamers used kid gloves for teleports gone wrong and that's his right as DM, but I determine randomly whether the result is really good, really bad or anywhere in-between. Nothing in the spell says to use kid gloves.

I mean, unless you're camping next to a volcano, the odds of teleporting into the middle of lava with a maximum of 20 mile divergence from your campsite seems like a stretch. Unless you're in a particularly hostile area, most places are reasonably safe, especially for a high level party that could almost certainly even survive falling off a mountain.

Sure, a DM could use it as an excuse to punish the players for using an ability the way it is intended to be used, but that's not good DMing IMO. The DM can do anything. That does not mean they should.

I've only seen a bad teleport once in my decades of gaming. It was actually in a game that I was running. The players needed to get somewhere fast, but they rolled off-target and ended up in the ocean, several miles off shore. That certainly might have gone poorly, but they had another teleport and that one got them where they wanted to go. Come to think of it, I think they also had a folding boat, so they probably would have been fine either way.

If you're using a teleport to escape, you're probably not using it every day, and therefore the odds of something like that happening are fairly slim.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Back in the THAC0 days, fighters were better at fighting, because their THAC0 improved faster than other classes did. And they would get more attacks, even if it was a weird number like three attacks every two rounds.

a big thing I noticed is each edition gets worse at this...
in 3e it was close to 2e but with ACs not caping at -10/30 not really and the lower bonus to hit for 2nd and 3rd attacks weakened the combatants.
4e went with fighters get the same 1/2 level but they got a +1 over that on weapon attacks
5e made it worse...all characters add the same prof to hit, and a combat stat to hit... a fighter with a str/dex of X will most likely be with a rogue with a dex of x+/-1 of his str/dex, the wizard with a Int of x+/-1 of the fighters str/dex ext..

and all stats cap at 20.

a fighter with a 20 str is as precise as a rogue with a dex of 20 or a hexblade with a cha of 20... now the 2 stat MAD classes like a war cleric (want wis and str) and the bard (cha and dex most likely) so they will most likely be slightly behind.

in my Saturday night campaign (like I said earlier) I am an armorer artificer. we are 7th (actually just going to level to 8 inbetween games) so I have a few spells 7d8+21 hps and can use my Int to attack and damage (thunder punch) and give myself 7 temps as a bonus action (I don't think I can remember any fight I didn't start with temps) I have 2 attacks then can choose my bonus action to make another attack or reup those temps. I can also choose to use spells (including self healing). I make a pretty good fighter and having the sentinel feat makes me better still. MY thorn whip ranged 30 melee attack that pulls also does amazing. (I cheese it because I am playing iron spider/venom and race is dampyer so I can spider climb and be on the cealing and pull 10ft up then they drop...not sure if that is raw or if DM is being nice)

I can't imagine anthing but the most optimized fighter being better then that artificer in combat (although I can see an optimized one pull ahead in 1 or 2 ways) but they have nothing on my out of combat utility... I double as our rogue (again not sure if this is RAW) because my tinker tools can tinker with locks and traps, and I have expertise in them. I can short rest swap out my iron spider suit for my venom suit and go infiltrator if we need.

and since we have a healer I almost never need to use my 7 spell slots to self heal (but I can) so those are 7 options no fighter or rogue will ever have (unless they take the subclass to be a caster)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Good point. That has always annoyed me: why aren't more skills tied to STR?

I don't know if it would be possible, but I really wish WotC would try to have all stats have 3+ skills

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, unless you're camping next to a volcano, the odds of teleporting into the middle of lava with a maximum of 20 mile divergence from your campsite seems like a stretch. Unless you're in a particularly hostile area, most places are reasonably safe, especially for a high level party that could almost certainly even survive falling off a mountain.

Why do you assume that teleport can and will only be used to teleport to the last place you camped? And do you have any idea how many different dangerous creatures and situation can and do exist in a D&D world within a 40 mile radius when you are out in the middle of danger territory central? The vast majority of dungeons and ruins are not in the middle of civilized territory.

Sure, a DM could use it as an excuse to be punish the players for using an ability the way it is intended to be used, but that's not good DMing IMO. The DM can do anything. That does not mean they should.

And this is just a load of flaming bull pucky. Nothing I said even hinted at punishment.

I've only seen a bad teleport once in my decades of gaming. It was actually in a game that I was running. The players needed to get somewhere fast, but they rolled off-target and ended up in the ocean, several miles off shore. That certainly might have gone poorly, but they had another teleport and that one got them where they wanted to go. Come to think of it, I think they also had a folding boat, so they probably would have been fine either way.

You've been very lucky and/or generous.

If you're using a teleport to escape, you're probably not using it every day, and therefore the odds of something like that happening are fairly slim.

5e guarantees that you aren't going to be using it every day. It's a very dangerous spell.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yea. Crits aren't fun for front liners either. But if they are near max hp they are almost certainly going to still be standing from one. Wizards, that's often more of a coin flip.

at first level a crit can kill anyone if it is a big die attack (this was the 3e orc issue, d12+x with a x3 crit would kill almost any pC) as you level it becomes less and less likely.

 

[Faolyn]

IMO. This is such a weird argument I don't even know how to respond. If you want to relegate better at fighting to simply being the attack bonus, more power to you I guess. But it shouldn't surprise you when others view being better at fighting more holistically. IMO, whether you are technically right or not I think it's safe to say you understand where everyone else is coming from. So, I really don't understand why this is becoming such a point of contention for you?

It's not a bone of contention. But the idea that you can do something better only because you can do more of it is, IMO, very silly. Ideally, fighters should both have a higher fighting skill and have more attacks.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's not a bone of contention. But the idea that you can do something better only because you can do more of it is, IMO, very silly. Ideally, fighters should both have a higher fighting skill and have more attacks.

For the rest of us, fighting skill is dependent on attack, damage, number of attacks, ac, hp and special abilities. For us fighting skill isn’t a number the game explicitly defines.