D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Azzy]

Problem: Non-magic classes don't have things to do and aren't fantastic.

Solution: Be Magic.

Or psionics... Because psioncs is allowed must be different from magic because reasons.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Isn't just them using spells. To repeat myself I like the Psi Warrior, the Rune Knight, and especially the Echo Knight - and they are all magical. They just aren't spellcasters.

I mean sure lean into magic or spells all you want in the subclasses but alot of people seem to want the base fighter at any rate to be non magic reliant for their capabilities, just pure skill and strength and the grit of their teeth.

 

[tetrasodium]

Lol, no. Nova is being able to dump a day's resources to obliterate an encounter. IE, the 5 minute work day. Give me a 5 minute mythic martial to put everyone on equal footing if that's the style of game I want to run. I'm too old to waste anymore of my life on MMO filler combat that is pointless other than give the chump classes a sense of contributing before they get to be mediocre in the one to two fights that actually matter.

does it really matter what the caster still has in the tank if the fight is over & the short rest classes are demanding the gm give them yet another short rest before they take a step anywhere but leomund's invincible fortress so they can bl;ow through it all again?

 

[TheSword]

Because the fighter doesnt get to repick their powers after a nap. And if smashing people back 10' isnt useful, the caster gets to reinvest that spell slot into something that is.

Casters are the swiss army knife. They should be somewhat worse at tasks than those with a limited focus. Since nerfing casters is off the table, that leaves a massive buff being needed for martials.

Neither does a bard, sorcerer, warlock, etc etc etc.

 

[TheSword]

But the goal here in the current discussion as it appears to be, is to make that ability and others, inherent to the base fighter in a flavour that isn’t just them using magic

See this is the problem I see. Folks want fighters to control the narrative and go outside the realm of normal… without it being magic. They want a different way. But what isn’t explained is why this is necessary. Or what the virtue of a non-spell version of Thunderspell is.

 

[TheSword]

Isn't just them using spells. To repeat myself I like the Psi Warrior, the Rune Knight, and especially the Echo Knight - and they are all magical. They just aren't spellcasters.

The difference is semantics and has no meaningful impact on the game.

 

[Vaalingrade]

See this is the problem I see. Folks want fighters to control the narrative and go outside the realm of normal… without it being magic. They want a different way. But what isn’t explained is why this is necessary.

I keep saying it's because being fantastic doesn't mean being magic, but again, ignored so the rhetoric that we're not explaining ourselves can stick.

 

[TheSword]

Why should magic be the only or primary mechanical means in the game for player characters to reliably change the game fiction? Why can't there be more mechanics that also let characters of non-magical classes change the state of the game fiction as part of play? What is wrong with a non-magical character having the capability to mechanically change the game fiction? Why should this be exclusive to magic?


I think you are missing my point here. Let me repeat myself:

I don't think that these people want something that "looks, sounds, and acts like magic," but, rather, something mechanical that lets their warrior characters reliably exert narrative agency over the game fiction.

And please note that I also point to the non-magical Battlemaster as an extraordinarily popular fighter subclass that has mechanical abilities that they can reliably perform: i.e., maneuvers.

Fighters can exert influence… it’s called character choice… when character choice is more challenging we use skill checks to moderate. When you want to skip those rules and force an outcome you have magic. Incidentally available to 92% of classes if they want it.

 

[TheSword]

I keep saying it's because being fantastic doesn't mean being magic, but again, ignored so the rhetoric that we're not explaining ourselves can stick.

Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. If it has the same effect, look and feel it might as well be Magic.

Incidentally ‘fantastical’ doesn’t mean anything different to ‘magical’

 

[Asisreo]

But the Champion is mathematically awful and barely distinguishable from not having a subclass. Improved Critical does very little extra damage (especially if you go sword & board). And the reason I picked samurai is that the samurai is probably easier to learn than the champion because Fighting Spirit is a very simple mechanic and one you get to control when you use. So I either want that replacement or a significant tune-up in the 10th/50th Anniversary edition.

Saying you want champion to be better mathematically is beyond fair. That's actually something I wish they had done. Even just increasing the range of crits would be fine. Imagine if the champion crit-hit at 16-20 for level 3 and 11-20 for level 15. It wouldn't even be too overpowered, and it'd feel much more consistent and satisfying.