D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Asisreo]

That's why I think Mort's suggestion of WotC sending possible such changes to UA is a great, great idea: it enables truly vigorous and rigorous playtesting without anything becoming finalized AND the parties that want such changes right away can look up all the reports from others who've tried them and learn from each other's insights when mulling their decisions about how best to achieve their desired balance between the classes.

This seems like a reasonable idea. Although, that UA already exists in the form of the spell-less Ranger. Keeping all the utility of the base Ranger and giving it extra stuff in the form of manuevers and other things to bolster it further.

Despite being able to negate difficult parts of exploration, people criticize them for being a problem since they immediately resolve encounters. But is that not what people see spells as? And is that not what is desired?

I agree it's not perfect but the fact that nobody seems to remember it, let alone praise it for trying, would send a message that nobody really cared about spell-less martial options. In fact, Tasha shows that people would prefer simpler bonuses like a bonus to an ability check or the ability to do more damage than having utility options that are more complex and require more tactical usage.

The Champion dropped and replaced with the Samurai as

This is a suggestion which might lose people, because now you are removing a class that certain people like for its simplicity. Same with making the battlemaster the base chassis of the fighter.

 

[Minigiant]

Personally I don't think the martial classes need magic per se.

What they need is definition. Like I said many times, part of the "problem" is that the fighter and rogue are mishmash blobs of different archetypes with few mechanics to separate the part afterward. So one fan of D&D is seeing X and another is seeing Y.

Now if the Fighter were defined as the Weaponmaster, then you can hone in on what it does. You can figure out what it does at level 1, level 6, level 11, level 16, and level 20. You can determine what a weaponmaster brings in combat,exploration, and social obstacles purely from its aspect of being a weaponmaster.

And more importantly it lets you pare away archetypes that muddle the works. Big Jimmy who barely practices his swordplay and mostly relies on his strength, toughness, and hard head isn't a fighter anymore. He is now a barbarian, the warrior of athleticism and emotion. Whereas Lord Quiad might have been trained as a warrior as a child, the focus of his training and what carried most of his life was more mental.

Once you separate the blademaster, the wild brute, the battlefield general, the elder dhampir, and the master thief, you can determine

• Their Out of Combat strength and bolster them
• How they could overextert to nova on shorter days
• What their high level archetypes look like

Keeping them together is just so much harder.

 

[Neonchameleon]

do you really consider rage magic or is this just for a point as the wants change side has stated many times the fantastic doesn't equal the same thing as magic

I'm going to slightly disagree with @Remathilis . Rage isn't magic in 5e but it's normally a consequence of magic. If we look at all the official barbarian subclasses in D&D 5e the following are not magical.

• Berserker (PHB). Just mundane rage. And it's a subclass people are warned away from
• Battlerager (SCAG). If anyone even remembers it exists. Rage + spiky armour + dwarf. I've never seen in play or anyone want to play.

The following are all pretty explicitly magical:

• Totem Warrior (PHB): Magic light to the point it would be my choice for a non-magical barbarian; you explicitly gain powers from your totem animal
• Ancestral Guardian (XGtE): Your rage involves summoning explicit spectral protectors
• Storm Herald (XGtE): Summon the power of the storm and get elemental damage auras
• Zealot (XGtE): Explicitly channel divine power with necrotic or radiant smites
• Beast (TCoE): Transform into a beast, growing fangs, claws, or a tail
• Wild Magic (TCoE): Do I really need to explain how wild magic is magical?

Seriously, the barbarian in 5e is based around channeling short bursts of power and almost all the subclasses make those bursts of power magical. But they aren't all from the same source any more than the sorcerer's magic is all from the same source.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Limited use is a typical way of controlling powers for balance purposes. How is it reasonable for wizards to have limited abilities for wizards but have unlimited abilities for fighters (on top of all their other benefits). It’s just not practical.

Because the fighter doesnt get to repick their powers after a nap. And if smashing people back 10' isnt useful, the caster gets to reinvest that spell slot into something that is.

Casters are the swiss army knife. They should be somewhat worse at tasks than those with a limited focus. Since nerfing casters is off the table, that leaves a massive buff being needed for martials.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This is a suggestion which might lose people, because now you are removing a class that certain people like for its simplicity. Same with making the battlemaster the base chassis of the fighter.

That's why I'm pretty sure the battlemaster becoming the base chassis isn't going to happen.

But the Champion is mathematically awful and barely distinguishable from not having a subclass. Improved Critical does very little extra damage (especially if you go sword & board). And the reason I picked samurai is that the samurai is probably easier to learn than the champion because Fighting Spirit is a very simple mechanic and one you get to control when you use. So I either want that replacement or a significant tune-up in the 10th/50th Anniversary edition.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

• Second Wind: "Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again."
• Action Surge: "
• Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again. Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn."
• Ki: "
  W hen you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. "

Barbarian & paladin are long rest classes, but monk & fighter are setup in a way that very much encourages Nova>letstakeashortrrest the second the last foe drops. Other than warlock casters are all pretty long rest based & need to pace themselves rather than go for broke at all times. I've even seen wizards refuse to take or scribe tiny hut or get up & go get pizza next door after announcing their initiative because they had no interest in enabling it while stuck sidelined in the dome yet again.

Lol, no. Nova is being able to dump a day's resources to obliterate an encounter. IE, the 5 minute work day. Give me a 5 minute mythic martial to put everyone on equal footing if that's the style of game I want to run. I'm too old to waste anymore of my life on MMO filler combat that is pointless other than give the chump classes a sense of contributing before they get to be mediocre in the one to two fights that actually matter.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That's why I'm pretty sure the battlemaster becoming the base chassis isn't going to happen.

But the Champion is mathematically awful and barely distinguishable from not having a subclass. Improved Critical does very little extra damage (especially if you go sword & board). And the reason I picked samurai is that the samurai is probably easier to learn than the champion because Fighting Spirit is a very simple mechanic and one you get to control when you use. So I either want that replacement or a significant tune-up in the 10th/50th Anniversary edition.

You could add the champion to the base fighter and it would still be meh.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Limited use is a typical way of controlling powers for balance purposes. How is it reasonable for wizards to have limited abilities for wizards but have unlimited abilities for fighters (on top of all their other benefits). It’s just not practical.

Limited use is a typical way of controlling powers for balance purposes - but far from the only way. No one is suggesting that a fighter has the full range of flexibility and top line power of a wizard - just that they can go significantly beyond a commoner's abilities outside combat.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Well the fighter does have it encoded. It’s called the Eldritch Knight. Or Magic Initiate. Both of which allow that power.

But the goal here in the current discussion as it appears to be, is to make that ability and others, inherent to the base fighter in a flavour that isn’t just them using magic

 

[Neonchameleon]

But the goal here in the current discussion as it appears to be, is to make that ability and others, inherent to the base fighter in a flavour that isn’t just them using magic

Isn't just them using spells. To repeat myself I like the Psi Warrior, the Rune Knight, and especially the Echo Knight - and they are all magical. They just aren't spellcasters.