D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Mort]

Mirror image suffers a major issue though. It only lasts 1 minute and takes a pretty significant number of attacks to exhaust its duplicates on average.

In our adventure day of 8 3 round encounters I’m not sure that mirror image is a particularly good defensive investment, even when it can be precast.

First, shouldn't the combats be 3-5 rounds average not just the low end 3?

Second, by 11th level many monsters have multiple attacks so the wizard getting attacked/hit multiple times in a round is common. I don't think expecting 3 hits in 3 (or more) rounds is at all unusual.

Mirror image soaks up the damage here AND, as importantly, avoids the need for a concentration check. This is a solid investment for a 2nd level slot - especially if precast.

 

[Gammadoodler]

First, shouldn't the combats be 3-5 rounds average not just the low end 3?

Second, by 11th level many monsters have multiple attacks so the wizard getting attacked/hit multiple times in a round is common. I don't think expecting 3 hits in 3 (or more) rounds is at all unusual.

Mirror image soaks up the damage here AND, as importantly, avoids the need for a concentration check. This is a solid investment for a 2nd level slot - especially if precast.

If it's 8 encounters, that's on the higher end of the normal adventuring day, so lower number of rounds seems reasonable.

I expect that the issue is the budgeting of leveled slots. At level 11, you have 16 (+ a few more from arcane recovery) slotted spells to get you through 24 rounds of combat.

 

[FrogReaver]

First, shouldn't the combats be 3-5 rounds average not just the low end 3?

Considering that would increase average combat rounds to 4. No. It doesn’t align with the reasonable assumption of 3 rounds we already have chosen. 3-5 rounds is also a fine assumption as well though.

Second, by 11th level many monsters have multiple attacks so the wizard getting attacked/hit multiple times in a round is common. I don't think expecting 3 hits in 3 (or more) rounds is at all unusual.

Mirror image soaks up the damage here AND, as importantly, avoids the need for a concentration check. This is a solid investment for a 2nd level slot - especially if precast.

So a level 11 wizard with 16 con and 14 dex has 15 ac with mage armor and 79 hp.

He can only be hit by 8 attacks averaging 10 damage each before he drops.

he probably has a 70% chance to be hit. 8 attack vs 15 ac base.

If he’s being attacked even 3 times per encounter he’s dead long before adventuring day is over.

even if he precasted mirror image before every encounter and the attacks came in uniformly like that, he’d still take about 8+ attacks - on average enough to down him by the end of the adventuring day.

 

[Mort]

If it's 8 encounters, that's on the higher end of the normal adventuring day, so lower number of rounds seems reasonable.

Sure but in any "real" situation you can't predict the number of rounds. Plus the lower number of rounds slightly favors the wizard (less time to expend slots).

I expect that the issue is the budgeting of leveled slots. At level 11, you have 16 (+ a few more from arcane recovery) slotted spells to get you through 24 rounds of combat.

Sure, but keep in mind that IF the wizard gets hit then any concentration spell potentially drops (so in addition to not taking damage mirror image is essentially an auto save to the concentration check - that's not minor)

Anyway, I'm not the one modeling and this is a (relatively) minor point - so I should stop harping on it. Other than to say, it's one of the MANY things wizards get an edge on re: survivability.

 

[Mort]

Considering that would increase average combat rounds to 4. No. It doesn’t align with the reasonable assumption of 3 rounds we already have chosen. 3-5 rounds is also a fine assumption as well though.


So a level 11 wizard with 16 con and 14 dex has 15 ac with mage armor and 79 hp.

He can only be hit by 8 attacks averaging 10 damage each before he drops.

he probably has a 70% chance to be hit. 8 attack vs 15 ac base.

If he’s being attacked even 3 times per encounter he’s dead long before adventuring day is over.

even if he precasted mirror image before every encounter and the attacks came in uniformly like that, he’d still take about 8+ attacks - on average enough to down him by the end of the adventuring day.

Shouldn't we put in 2 short rests? that will give the wizard significantly more staying power, fighter too but that makes it accurate. Aside, of course, from the fact that he would probably have access to a cleric and healing potions somewhere in those 8 encounters.

Pus, allowing for a short rest means the wizard gets some spells back - and the fighter gets some stuff back too (action surge and second wind both being biggies, plus maneuvers if you're modeling a battle master)

 

[TheSword]

Contingency is a really interesting spell. You have a tough choice to make though. Do you cast it with a simple common defense spell and have it go off in the first encounter you get to, then having to cast it again and lose a precious 6th level slot. Or put it on something less common like an emergency escape and have it not go off.

To me, using to avoid having to cast mirror image on round 1 buys you one spell action in one combat once per period. It’s a very incremental benefit. Maybe handy if you have nothing else to do with it.

Wizards can’t easily get that healing magic. The most useful spell would probably be greater restoration but that’s a no go.

Emergency escape is always difficult. You either trigger it off a conscious trigger like a command word or gesture (free action) in which case it isn’t happening when paralyses/unconscious/asleep/feebleminded etc or it takes affect on an unconscious trigger in which case you can’t choose your dimension door location if you’re unconscious/asleep/feebleminded, or worse you’re dying and your friends can’t find you because you’re invisible etc.

Probably worth saving for a spell you know you’ll cast every so often but not every day. Save you having to memorize it and save the round to cast it. Polymorph for instance.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Considering that would increase average combat rounds to 4. No. It doesn’t align with the reasonable assumption of 3 rounds we already have chosen. 3-5 rounds is also a fine assumption as well though.


So a level 11 wizard with 16 con and 14 dex has 15 ac with mage armor and 79 hp.

He can only be hit by 8 attacks averaging 10 damage each before he drops.

he probably has a 70% chance to be hit. 8 attack vs 15 ac base.

If he’s being attacked even 3 times per encounter he’s dead long before adventuring day is over.

even if he precasted mirror image before every encounter and the attacks came in uniformly like that, he’d still take about 8+ attacks - on average enough to down him by the end of the adventuring day.

I think maybe a better analysis might be how many resources does each class need to expend to survive the day.

The wizard has hit dice and spells, the fighter has second wind and hit dice.

If there's a deficit after extending all available resources, you make up for it in external healing and disclose the amount of healing required as indicator of the level of "drain" on the party each class represents.

Edit: this might be a bit of a slider for the wizard as spell slots used for defense are not used for damage, so "drain" at different levels of damage output might be useful

Edit 2: of course this slider would be imperfect since high damage output is also a form of damage mitigation..

 

[Mort]

Contingency is a really interesting spell. You have a tough choice to make though. Do you cast it with a simple common defense spell and have it go off in the first encounter you get to, then having to cast it again and lose a precious 6th level slot. Or put it on something less common like an emergency escape and have it not go off.

To me, using to avoid having to cast mirror image on round 1 buys you one spell action in one combat once per period. It’s a very incremental benefit. Maybe handy if you have nothing else to do with it.

Wizards can’t easily get that healing magic. The most useful spell would probably be greater restoration but that’s a no go.

Emergency escape is always difficult. You either trigger it off a conscious trigger like a command word or gesture (free action) in which case it isn’t happening when paralyses/unconscious/asleep/feebleminded etc or it takes affect on an unconscious trigger in which case you can’t choose your dimension door location if you’re unconscious/asleep/feebleminded, or worse you’re dying and your friends can’t find you because you’re invisible etc.

Tough choices - absolutely. BUT

The wizard (player) can base those choices on the campaign, the DM etc. By the time the wizard can cast contingency, unless the campaign started at high level - the player should have a decent feel for what to expect, when best and how best to use the spell. Will that be perfect? Not by a long shot. But it's still very handy and pretty good emergency plan (as opposed to the fighters, hope your HP hold and if not, hope someone is there to save you)!

 

[TheSword]

Tough choices - absolutely. BUT

The wizard (player) can base those choices on the campaign, the DM etc. By the time the wizard can cast contingency, unless the campaign started at high level - the player should have a decent feel for what to expect, when best and how best to use the spell. Will that be perfect? Not by a long shot. But it's still very handy and pretty good emergency plan (as opposed to the fighters, hope your HP hold and if not, hope someone is there to save you)!

Everyone has to hope someone is there to save them if their hp’s don’t hold. Fighters are just as useful at 0 hp as Wizards are. Except maybe the wizard is easier to carry

 

[Gammadoodler]

Everyone has to hope someone is there to save them if their hp’s don’t hold. Fighters are just as useful at 0 hp as Wizards are. Except maybe the wizard is easier to carry

This is why you always choose a small race.