D&D General What’s The Big Deal About Psionics?

[MoonSong]

Finally, there is Psionics, which also does not originate in the weave. Instead, a creature generates the power themself.

How is this not a sorcerer?

 

[Remathilis]

They’re just different spells. They’re spells, but from a different source and maybe a lil weird, but not really that special. Near as I can tell. I am sure I’m missing something because every time Dark Sun comes up there’s a grip ton of hand wringing about getting Psionics right. It just seems like spells to me. Spells with a different but not much different rule system. Sorcerer, but with unique spells. I don’t get why it’s a big deal and why it’s not just a different spell list. Help me understand. Or confirm, it’s just spells With a new name.

When the Mystic was running around as a potential psionic class, I was pretty adamant that psionics should be mechanically distinct yet compatible with magic, using some other method of tracking other than spell slots and have abilities that spellcasters don't replicate and vice-versa.

Now? I just want a psionic-themed spellcaster subclass that doesn't ooze goo or grow tentacles.

 

[This Effin’ GM]

Not gonna lie I have always assumed people want Seperate psionic rules because it’s “magic, without having to tell everyone it’s magic with those pesky v,s, and m components”

 

[Raduin711]

I am sure I’m missing something because every time Dark Sun comes up there’s a grip ton of hand wringing about getting Psionics right. It just seems like spells to me. Spells with a different but not much different rule system. Sorcerer, but with unique spells. I don’t get why it’s a big deal and why it’s not just a different spell list. Help me understand. Or confirm, it’s just spells With a new name.

If you go back to 2nd edition, the edition that Dark Sun was originally made for, Psionics was different than magic in a number of ways:

• Powers were not arranged by level. Instead, they were divided into Sciences and Devotions. Sciences were the heavy hitters... the teleporations, shapechanging, mind control, etc. Devotionswere your minor powers that were more like neat tricks or necessary utilities. Sciences were the main courses; devotions were the hors d'oeuvres.
  • some powers did have level requirements, but most were available for use right out of the gate at 1st level. Progression was flatter, overall, which helped facilitate Wild Talents.
• Psionicists were forced specialists. A beginning character could choose only 1 Discipline, analogous to a school of magic. If you chose Psychoportation, you might be a 1st level character capable of teleportation, but all of your abilities would be focused on movement. After time you could learn more Disciplines. Psionicists broadened in ability rather than climbed a stairway of power.
• Psionicists weren't armorless, staff-wielding wizards. They had limited access to weapons and armor, since psionics was much more about enhancing yourself, your own mind and body, the "staff n'robes" setup didn't make sense.
• PSP's. Honestly, I think much ado is made over nothing in regards to how the powers are paid for. Slots, points, who cares. The main takeaway here was that PSP's were regained hourly, depending on activity level. While I consider this level of bookkeeping to be a sin, ultimately this meant that psionicists were the beginning of refreshing their powers by short rests rather than full ones.
• Powers worked like proficiencies (skills) and could fail. They were keyed to Intelligence (mind) Constitution (body) and Wisdom (spirit). Rolling a critical failure could have drastic consequences for some powers (the stronger the power, the worse the consequences... some even cause permanent stat damage) There were also critical successes.
• Telepathic combat was a sort of mini-game. Every psionicist, regardless of Discipline had a Defense Mode, and the telepathic attack modes all could be used twice per round. The goal was for the attacker to get 3 hits on the defender. Once that happened, they could use one of their telepathic powers, like dominate. It was a bit of a janky paper/rock/scissors/lizard/spock setup.
• The fact that the things they did were not actually magic meant that they were immune to things like dispel magic and anti-magic zones, which helped cement their flavor as different and gave their flatter power level an edge over magic.

So we have a class that bucks the traditional magic power structure, that focuses on self-enhancement and mind-effecting powers, that has the equipment of a cleric and pays for powers like a cross between a sorcerer and a warlock (before either class ever existed) with a special flavor all it's own, and was designed to be easily slotted into other characters via the Wild Talent system. And this is the dominant sort of power in Dark Sun.

And so keeping that in mind, when you turn the page to, say 3rd edition psionics, which was exactly as you described: just spells. It was spells, you paid for it a different way, and had some new bells and whistles, but yeah. spells. Some of 2nd editions powers made cameos in this system, but ultimately 3rd edition psionics was there to sell a product to players who cursed the name of Jack Vance.

And now people want to play Dark Sun again, and 3rd edition psionics feels... off. And we have been trying to get back there ever since...

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Psionics is another one of those things in D&D where people either see the issue and want to fix it or don't see an issue and actively go out of their way to obstruct fixing it because adding something optional to the game is hurting them in some ephemeral way.

That 'ephemeral way' is turning the game into incoherent bloated mess. If they actually added every class and variant mechanic these forums want, AD&D would start to look like a coherent game with unified design principles in comparison.

 

[dave2008]

Agree, but we should, there should be much more separation. There should be much more uniqueness. Frankly, wizards and clerics shouldn’t share ANY spells.

I tend to agree. I personally think the D&D magic system could use a rather large over hall thematically. However I am generally fine with them sharing mechanics. That being said, if I was going to hand out different mechanics I would do it between divine magic (clerics, paladins, maybe druids) and arcane magic. Arcane (of which I would include psionics) is spells, while divine magic comes through faith and prayer. So I would actually eliminate spell list for clerics and make their magic class features, like Turn Undead.

 

[dave2008]

I would prefer a non-spell-based psionics system.

Spells are discrete things. You cast fireball, and you get a 20-foot-radius ball of fire somewhere far away doing X amount of damage. You cast haste, and the target moves faster and can do more stuff. It is trivial to create a character who can do both of these things.

Psionics, at least to me, lean more on sci-fi and superhero tropes. In those, it is more common to have one (or rarely multiple) core power(s) that can be expressed in different ways. Xavier is a telepath. He can communicate telepathically, read minds, create mental blasts, create mental illusions, project astrally, and use his telepathy in a number of other ways. In the OG Marvel RPG, this was expressed as having the Telepathy power and a number of "Power stunts" based on that power. But he can't move things with his mind, or see the future, or walk through walls, or heal his legs.

My preference would be for a psionics system that used that as a core idea. The closest was 2e, where psionicists started out with a single discipline (telepathy, clairsentience, psychoportation, psychokinesis, or psychometabolism – I don't recall if you could take metapsionics as a primary discipline, but it would likely not have been a good idea even if you could). Even then you could branch out, but one discipline would always be primary.

Now, 2e psionics were far from perfect. The telepathy powers were too punishing for non-psionics, and the system was mostly too flat (1st level psychoporters could have, and probably would have, Teleport as a power – far shorter range than the spell, but still). But deep down, it's what I think of as being "right" for D&D psionics. Perhaps because that's where I started, but also because of this approach of powers being different expressions of a core discipline.

I don't disagree with this approach, I just feel like you could achieve that with spell mechanics. Either slots or spell points. It is really about catering the spell list and maybe a few other things IMO.

 

[ART!]

According to the 5e designers, psionics is a power source, like arcane and divine are.

Any power source can do an effect that is a spell, do an effect that isnt a spell but is magical, and do an effect that is nonmagical.

In 5e we see examples of psionic spells, such as the "innate spellcasting" of certain subclasses and monsters. We also see psionic class features that are magic but not spells.

It's a fine line, maybe? I always saw innate spellcasting as a magical ability that is just built in to a race with magical origins.

 

[Faolyn]

Yes, it is just magic. If you levitate things with your mind, it is magic. But for some reason some people want a completely separate parallel magic system because they have found a different word for magic. 'Psionics' is just a word Victorians came up when calling things 'magic' became too embarrassing.

Someone may have already said this, but psionics is a modern term meaning the use of psychic powers with electronic devices. It's not Victorian. Psychic is a Victorian, though, but has a much older origin.

 

[Vaalingrade]

That 'ephemeral way' is turning the game into incoherent bloated mess. If they actually added every class and variant mechanic these forums want, AD&D would start to look like a coherent game with unified design principles in comparison.

So... don't buy those books instead of stepping on other people's fun?