D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Jer]

I'm going to disagree with the idea that long backstories for characters is some new development. When I ran 1e back in the 80s, my players would create genealogies connecting their characters, their ancestry. I have zines from the 80s and 90s that have whole sections dedicated to character backgrounds. Somewhere I have the two-page backstory a player handed to me for their first level halfling in 2e.

Absolutely true. You can find articles in the 80s in Dragon magazine where they talk about creating backstories for your characters as an important roleplaying enhancement. And there were plenty of not-D&D games where that advice was given as well where it would bleed over into D&D if you played them.

IME the number of players who would show up with a 12 page backstory for their character was small, but it wasn't zero. In fact I think these days backstories among the folks I play with tend to be shorter because there are some explicit rules in place for shorthand about backgrounds in the games we play (13th age in particular reduces the 12 page backstory down to a few background tags you can come up with for yourself to get some bonuses on skill checks and a One Unique Thing that should be about a sentence or two. You can still work a 12 page backstory up if you want to, but who has the time these days?)

 

[HammerMan]

I don’t see any restraint in 5ed to have your 2HD smith, or a sage with 10 hit points and +10 in all knowledge skill.

proficiency is tied to CR... CR is tied to combat ability... I house rule around it but it is a flaw that needs a house rule around

 

[HammerMan]

It is honestly weird how commoners live a life of serf-like suck-ulence despite there apparently not being serfs or a functional feudal system in the game that lies about being medieval.

yeah I stopped asking 'who owns the farms' by 97 because most home brew and all official campaign settings are unrealistic that way.

 

[Lidgar]

Coming from playing AD&D and joining a group that started with 5th, it blows their minds when I think around an issue instead of relying on a save or skill check.

Poison needle trap? I wear a metal gauntlet. I specifically say Im looking for false bottoms instead of just "I roll for that."

Etc etc

It actually kind of bums me out that Im generally the only one who really interacts with the enviroment instead of relying on dice to do it for me.

Same with combat. Bull rushing in works just fine. Tactics barely exist anymore.

Heck younger players Ive played with are so ready to get going they just activate traps and rush into combat, knowing their saves and hp and easy access to heals etc will save the day.

Used to be afraid of traps, now they are just an annoyance.

We just went through Tomb of Horrors (5e) and it included a mix of older and new players. It was interesting to see the different approaches to disarming traps. One of the newer players kept trying to use thieves' tool checks to disarm poison needle traps on a set of chests, and would fail and set it off. The older player then stepped in and used a pole to simply set it off from a distance. The chagrin on the newer player's face was priceless.

 

[overgeeked]

You don't have to change every table, just yours. But, you do have to work against expectations.

Yeah. I tried that. The response was “no”. I tried that again. The response was still “no”. I tried again. Nope. And again. Nope. Again. Nope. So I switched to OSR games and suddenly I didn’t have to fight against that tsunami. The players were all already onboard.

 

[DarkCrisis]

We just went through Tomb of Horrors (5e) and it included a mix of older and new players. It was interesting to see the different approaches to disarming traps. One of the newer players kept trying to use thieves' tool checks to disarm poison needle traps on a set of chests, and would fail and set it off. The older player then stepped in and used a pole to simply set it off from a distance. The chagrin on the newer player's face was priceless.

Yup. Been there.

It's nice when they learn though. Like I would use a spike to seal closed doors so we could rest in safety. And then they started doing it as well.

 

[Jer]

yeah I stopped asking 'who owns the farms' by 97 because most home brew and all official campaign settings are unrealistic that way.

This is where I make my pitch that the "medieval fantasy" of D&D owes as much to the American Western narrative tradition as it does to any kind of actual medieval history. Most of the farms seem to be owned by small yeoman farmers rather than large land owners with serfs to work them, most of the action takes place on a perpetual frontier rather than more densely settled lands, adventurers roll into town and bring chaos in their wake like gunslingers roll into the area and start saloon fights, etc.

(This analogy makes even more sense when you realize what the output of guys like Robert E Howard looked like - a mix of fantasy and western because the western stuff paid better at the time. It does lead to some dark realizations about the place of the orcs, goblins and others on that perpetual frontier tho.)

 

[HammerMan]

This is where I make my pitch that the "medieval fantasy" of D&D owes as much to the American Western narrative tradition as it does to any kind of actual medieval history. Most of the farms seem to be owned by small yeoman farmers rather than large land owners with serfs to work them, most of the action takes place on a perpetual frontier rather than more densely settled lands, adventurers roll into town and bring chaos in their wake like gunslingers roll into the area and start saloon fights, etc.

(This analogy makes even more sense when you realize what the output of guys like Robert E Howard looked like - a mix of fantasy and western because the western stuff paid better at the time. It does lead to some dark realizations about the place of the orcs, goblins and others on that perpetual frontier tho.)

yeah... this thread has been eye opening It isn't Medieval as much as it is a High Fantasy (or heroic fantasy) Western with the light vainer and furnishings of a Ren fair... full of anachronisms even with the mixmash

 

[LordEntrails]

yes and no... I left 5e as nebulas but the Prof is supposed to be based on CR... so there are a bit of both as you see above I am doing it, I would like the DMG to point it out more

proficiency is tied to CR... CR is tied to combat ability... I house rule around it but it is a flaw that needs a house rule around

Yes, if you look at the tables for NPC creation, CR is linked softly to the Proficiency bonus. But you are supposed to average the offensive and defensive averages of CR to calculate the final CR.

BUT, where you error is thinking that an NPC skill must be equal to the prof plus ability modifier. No where are their rules for NPCs that say that. There is no reason that an NPC with an strength ability modifier of -1 and a prof of +2 can't have an Athletics skill of +20. If you are detail oriented and feel a need to justify it, just give them a trait "Superior Athlete".

Besides, CR only matters for NPCs that you might want to worry about the PCs fighting. and then intend to award XP for defeating.

 

[Lanefan]

There's only so much one DM at one table can do against the tsunami. As I said above, I've had players literally stop and do nothing rather than interact with the environment beyond making a roll. Nothing I said or did or asked got them to budge in inch. If the players aren't willing to at least try...that's that.

Unfortunately the only solution there is to just patiently wait them out, no matter how long it takes. Sooner or later at least one of them will get bored enough to have their PC try something - even if it's just picking a fight with another PC or doing something potentially suicidal - which can start things moving again. And if they really have hit a dead end (it happens) but can't think outside the box enough to consider a different approach or even abandoning that activity/mission and trying another, that's a pretty un-creative group of players.

If you don't wait them out it'll just encourage them to use this stalling tactic again whenever the next move isn't obvious.