D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Thomas Shey]

And buried in there is the seed of why I will never play a fighter in older editions...the idea that I can potentially be playing the same character for a year or longer and in that time what I can do to engage with the game is exactly the same as what I could do on the first day.

There is a lot of negative attitude towards "buttons" in this (and many) discussions, but the "buttons" are what makes this a role-playing GAME and not just a role-playing ACTIVITY.

My characterization of OD&D when I walked away from it many decades ago was "Playing a spellcaster has all the charm of a man with a bag full of hand grenades, and playing a fighter is simultaneously dull as dishwater and abstract to the point of having no sense of connection with what's going on."

I ended up having many complaints with D&D 3e, but at least neither of those was true (other than the abstraction).

 

[Thomas Shey]

In Aliens, the writers went out of their way to place the Colonial Marines at a significant disadvantage when initially facing the xenomoprhs. Namely they were being led by a green commander who, despite decent intelligence on the capabilities of the xenomophs and evidence the colonist encountered one or more, decided it was a good idea to disarm his warfighters and send them into hostile territory blind to what was there. It didn't help when Dietrich accidentally torched the marine holding all their ammunition.

Anyway, once the remaining marines were able to retreat and regroup they were all pretty badass. Even Gorman died like a boss trying to save Vasquez.

Well, in practice, the majority of the marines were ablative armor for the main characters. Of course, being a war story, plenty of them don't get to make it either, but the distinction is very visible, and you can pick out the mains well before the rest are ablated off by the scene in the plant.

 

[Yardiff]

You'd still have to have lived under a rock to to not know what these anime are.

Guess I live under a rock. Most anime shows hold no interest for me so...

 

[Thomas Shey]

In an RPG you’re not limited to just what’s on your character sheet. You can do more than what’s listed there. Player creativity and imagination are always an option. The sheet is the start of the character, not the end.

And as always, it ends up turning into a game of "will the GM decide I can do this? Will his decision as to how to resolve it make it anything but a stupid idea?" You'll excuse me if that's a guessing game I'm not interested in engaging in on a regular basis.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I will humbly submit that there is still a zero in 5th edition. Most of the players look at the world through the eyes of a PC. Level 1 to 20 is zero to hero. The fact that the scale has changed since first edition doesn't change the zero to hero dynamic much.

Its exceedingly visible to people who mostly play other games where starting characters are more capable out the gate (and often progress only incrementally afterwards); except for starting with good attributes, a level one PF2e character does not come across as as capable as a typical starting character in non class-and-level fantasy games, because those don't feel compelled to have you start at the bottom.

 

[Monayuris]

And as always, it ends up turning into a game of "will the GM decide I can do this? Will his decision as to how to resolve it make it anything but a stupid idea?" You'll excuse me if that's a guessing game I'm not interested in engaging in on a regular basis.

One of the more striking differences in how the game has changed is in where the majority of the game play exists in the game.

In older editions (pre-WoTC),the majority of the game play is at the table. You roll up your character and you are thrust into the dungeon or the environment. The game play becomes interacting with the environment and determining how to overcome obstacles. The DM presents the environment and the game play is in how to deal with it. Whether it is traversing a crevasse to encountering orcs, to figuring out how to get the treasure from a trapped room. It is the players devising plans and strategies to succeed.

Modern editions (post WoTC), the majority of the game play is before you get to the table; during character creation. The game is more about developing your character build. Choosing skills and feats and powers and spells and multiclassing to make a character that has the proper game mechanics to succeed. Most of the game play is done in looking for synergies and creating an effective character. When at the table, iti a matter of running the build and executing the powers that were chosen.

 

[overgeeked]

One of the more striking differences in how the game has changed is in where the majority of the game play exists in the game.

In older editions (pre-WoTC),the majority of the game play is at the table. You roll up your character and you are thrust into the dungeon or the environment. The game play becomes interacting with the environment and determining how to overcome obstacles. The DM presents the environment and the game play is in how to deal with it. Whether it is traversing a crevasse to encountering orcs, to figuring out how to get the treasure from a trapped room. It is the players devising plans and strategies to succeed.

Yeah. Adventure.

Modern editions (post WoTC), the majority of the game play is before you get to the table; during character creation. The game is more about developing your character build. Choosing skills and feats and powers and spells and multiclassing to make a character that has the proper game mechanics to succeed. Most of the game play is done in looking for synergies and creating an effective character. When at the table, iti a matter of running the build and executing the powers that were chosen.

That's a good point.

And the modern game has the default "challenges" so ridiculously undertuned that you win even if you show up.

 

[tetrasodium]

And as always, it ends up turning into a game of "will the GM decide I can do this? Will his decision as to how to resolve it make it anything but a stupid idea?" You'll excuse me if that's a guessing game I'm not interested in engaging in on a regular basis.

Systems with robust rules for noncombat pillars don't need players to ask the gm if the player can do something. There might be some negotiation to make sure everything fits but the mechanics & results are established by the system. Take the ever famous swing from the chandelier to attack trope as an example. ... Here's how it might work in fate:

• Bob: I want to swing from the chandelier to attack
• GM: There's a lot wrong with that but lets start with what your aiming to get out of that?
• Bob: I think it would be cool to woosh in & maybe give me a bonus to attack hum by surprise
• GM: ok that goal is doable in a few ways I'm sure but remember where you are, guys want to remind bob?
• Alice & Cindy: A greasy spoon that caters to caravaneers.
• GM & Alice: Yea probably not any chandeliers & maybe not even much lighting
• Bob: What about like a wheeled cart or something, could I ride it like a skateboard between the tables?
• Cindy: Ooo that might be cool but there's a big buffet, maybe you could ski on a serving tray across the continental breakfast spread!
• GM: Any of those sound good.
• Bob: Well I don't want to use my action setting up that aspect so I'm going to spend a fate point to do it, that gives me a +2 or reroll when I invoke the aspect I'm creating while attacking right?
• GM: Yup them's the rules

 

[Thomas Shey]

Systems with robust rules for noncombat pillars don't need players to ask the gm if the player can do something. There might be some negotiation to make sure everything fits but the mechanics & results are established by the system. Take the ever famous swing from the chandelier to attack trope as an example. ... Here's how it might work in fate:

• Bob: I want to swing from the chandelier to attack
• GM: There's a lot wrong with that but lets start with what your aiming to get out of that?
• Bob: I think it would be cool to woosh in & maybe give me a bonus to attack hum by surprise
• GM: ok that goal is doable in a few ways I'm sure but remember where you are, guys want to remind bob?
• Alice & Cindy: A greasy spoon that caters to caravaneers.
• GM & Alice: Yea probably not any chandeliers & maybe not even much lighting
• Bob: What about like a wheeled cart or something, could I ride it like a skateboard between the tables?
• Cindy: Ooo that might be cool but there's a big buffet, maybe you could ski on a serving tray across the continental breakfast spread!
• GM: Any of those sound good.
• Bob: Well I don't want to use my action setting up that aspect so I'm going to spend a fate point to do it, that gives me a +2 or reroll when I invoke the aspect I'm creating while attacking right?
• GM: Yup them's the rules

That's an approach that works, but even broadly applicable rules sets like Fate require a bit more constant negotiation (and are a bit too disconnected to me) for what I want. Admittedly, some of this is unavoidable barring detailed environment descriptions and/or the local game culture tolerance for players inserting environment detail, but there's some issues over and above that.

 

[Remathilis]

And as always, it ends up turning into a game of "will the GM decide I can do this? Will his decision as to how to resolve it make it anything but a stupid idea?" You'll excuse me if that's a guessing game I'm not interested in engaging in on a regular basis.

If you want a good example of how the game has evolved, this might be it.

Older D&D was a weird mix of hard rules (roll to find secret doors) and fiat ("I search the room for clues"). As the game moved forward, a lot of things got codified into rules with specific triggers and requirements. Third edition gave PCs very specific "I can do X" abilities with feats, and 4e explicitly gave "I do X" abilities in the form of powers. the cost, of course, was that to do X, you now needed the feat or power that gives it to you. If you don't have the dirty fighting feat, your pocket sand is never going to blind your opponent (because if it can, why would anyone waste a slot on dirty fighting?)

In that regard, I'm glad 5e dialed back the hard-, coding of abilities being needed to take specific actions. I think there might be room to allow for some additional coded abilities, especially for fighters, but I don't want to ever go back to Helpless Prisoner.

Helpless Prisoner – d20PFSRD

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