D&D 5E When you've made the battle too much to handle...

[DEFCON 1]

One of the possible options is for the party to figure out that they are in over their heads.

I do not disagree at all. Which is why that's not what I've been posting about.

 

[Mort]

Because "the players not being too stubborn to run away" is a viable option.

Unless it isn't (a viable option).

Fights, in ALL versions of D&D with 5e being no exception, are difficult to flee from.

For that not to be the case the DM has to expressly build in a way for the PCs to flee and telegraph accordingly.

And as to the OP, he's stated he WANTS some ideas on how to avoid A TPK because HE made some mistakes. Saying, nah, just kill them - isn't all that helpful!

So as to options:

1. Have an out present itself, such as have an NPC distract the Litch so the PCs can run. Or have something else happen that the PCs see a viable escape route. Make sure the PCs know running is a viable and, likely good option.

2. Have something happen "elsewhere in the dungeon" that requires the Litch's immediate attention, the Litch then dimension doors out to deal with it. The PCs get a breather and a reminder that they need to step up their game or get the heck out of dodge.

3. Have the Lich go full bore, but he needs the PCs alive (for experiments or whatever) and captures them instead. Changes the focus of the adventure campaign but can be it's own fun.

While I'm not against the idea of on the fly modifying the encounter downwards in certain cases. I think, here, there are enough interesting outs to not have to do that.

 

[ad_hoc]

If they die, they die.

If there is no risk of defeat then there is no triumph.

You said the party missed out on chances to gain power and allies and were also drained at the beginning of the encounter.

Could they have retreated (and failed the goal but survive) without engaging the Lich?

At my table the group knows TPKs are on the table so they do their best in each encounter to keep their strength up. If they haven't been doing well they either retreat or throw caution to the wind and go for it. Makes for an exciting game.

 

[Bluebell]

I know how moments like these can make us second guess ourselves as DMs. Did I provide enough foreshadowing? Was I clear about the opportunities for power/allies in this dungeon? Did I lean too hard into their weaknesses? I've been there and I'll be there again. The silver lining is that, if I keep my wits about me, moments like this are a great opportunity to explore the story deeper.

For instance, just taking the standard MM lich's Lair Actions, there could be a lot of story implications behind "tether" and "dead spirits."

That "tether" implies some kind of a psychic or soul-based connection between the Lich and the Wizard PC. Even though the MM describes that mechanistically as a one-way street benefiting the Lich, that need not be the case. What does that connection look and feel like? For instance, can the Wizard PC catch glimpses of the Lich's past to ascertain its weaknesses (either mechanical vulnerabilities/weaknesses or roleplaying flaws)? Might there be a way for the Wizard PC to strip away certain condition immunities (e.g. charmed? for the alu-fiend to get charm through) from the Lich by sheer force of will exploiting that connection? As a last ditch scenario, could the Wizard deliberately nuke himself and force the Lich to take half damage in a sacrifice play to win the day or at least cause the Lich enough harm that it retreats?

Or with the "dead spirits", that implies there are a lot of souls that have been bound to the Lich over the years. Maybe in the heat of combat, the Lich's binding on these souls weakens? Could a cleric or paladin use Channel Divinity – perhaps with a bit of roleplay interaction with one of these spirits – to turn the souls against the Lich?

I'd lean harder into your story, and also see what story implications there might be to the scene / stats that maybe heretofore have been hidden or unexplored.

On the plus side, for an experienced group of 5e players, it's probably refreshing for them to feel like something is pushing them beyond their limits. I know you said that a TPK is a foregone conclusion, but I've learned never to underestimate my players, especially when all the chips are down. They just might have a plan (even a reckless one).

I agree, I think there are fun things that can be done with this scenario that deepen the themes rather than pulling away from them. I'm a big fan of consequences that offer more opportunities for PC action -- don't save them from loss, just change the loss into a situation that they now have to fix.

My first thought from this "tether" concept was that the Lich might be somehow feeding off of one of the PCs, and infecting them with an undead state in exchange. If the fighter is approaching death, why not instead push them into a state of semi-undeath? Make them a thrall of the Lich and turn the party loose, leaving them to figure out how to reverse what's been done to the fighter before they become a complete zombie.

Or apply it to the whole party. The Lich has been spamming Toll the Dead, causing necromantic damage? Gradually everyone is becoming tainted by undeath. The Lich leaves them alive, but cursed. Even when they try to sleep, they're haunted by the clanging of bells. Now hunting down the Lich again is a matter of their own survival, but if they don't find the resources/allies they need first, they won't have a hope of reversing what's been done to them.

 

[Mort]

I agree, I think there are fun things that can be done with this scenario that deepen the themes rather than pulling away from them. I'm a big fan of consequences that offer more opportunities for PC action -- don't save them from loss, just change the loss into a situation that they now have to fix.

My first thought from this "tether" concept was that the Lich might be somehow feeding off of one of the PCs, and infecting them with an undead state in exchange. If the fighter is approaching death, why not instead push them into a state of semi-undeath? Make them a thrall of the Lich and turn the party loose, leaving them to figure out how to reverse what's been done to the fighter before they become a complete zombie.

Or apply it to the whole party. The Lich has been spamming Toll the Dead, causing necromantic damage? Gradually everyone is becoming tainted by undeath. The Lich leaves them alive, but cursed. Even when they try to sleep, they're haunted by the clanging of bells. Now hunting down the Lich again is a matter of their own survival, but if they don't find the resources/allies they need first, they won't have a hope of reversing what's been done to them.

Exactly,

Consequences are generally much more fun than a TPK/near TPK (which aren't so much consequences as a reset).

The break in the action has provided the OP with a nice opportunity to plan something interesting/fun for his players.

 

[RobJN]

"Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable. "

 

[Mort]

"Knocking a Creature Out
Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable. "

The Lich is using a ranged cantrip that deals necrotic damage, so this doesn't really apply. but:

1. It's a Lich if it wants to knock you out it should be able too, so sure why not;

2. PCs don't die quickly when downed in 5e, so the Lich can down them and then stabilize them, if it wants.

Point being, if the Lich wants to capture rather than kill the PCs it should certainly be able to.

 

[overgeeked]

Unless it isn't (a viable option).

Fights, in ALL versions of D&D with 5e being no exception, are difficult to flee from.

Fights are exactly as difficult to flee from as the DM wants them to be.

And as to the OP, he's stated he WANTS some ideas on how to avoid A TPK because HE made some mistakes. Saying, nah, just kill them - isn't all that helpful!

It's quite helpful. It's just not something you want to do. Which is fair. But it's still a viable option.

The OP's request is predicated on a false premise. That encounter balance is something to strive for. It's not. It makes the world feel like a video game. Some things will be a breezy walk in the park, others a desperate and overwhelming fight to the death. Fights that you expect to go one way will inevitably go the other. So be it. The players can decide to run. If they don't, that's on them. The DM can decide to let them run, that's on them. The DM can also do any one of the dozens of suggestions already presented...up to and including the dreaded TPK.

If nothing else, have the lich raise the party as minions and give them a chance to escape its control and go on an epic quest to restore themselves to proper life. Or kill them and have them wake up in the underworld and the Lord of the Dead is pissed about all this necromancy and sends the PCs back to the land of the living to put a stop to the lich, after training up some because clearly they need a bit of help in that regard.

My point is: don't shy away from the consequences of bad choices. Lean into them and find ways to make them epic. That's where the memorable tabletop war stories come from. That time the party wiped, was raised by a lich, escaped, then sought revenge...not that time the DM took it easy on us.

 

[iserith]

Fights are exactly as difficult to flee from as the DM wants them to be.

It's quite helpful. It's just not something you want to do. Which is fair. But it's still a viable option.

The OP's request is predicated on a false premise. That encounter balance is something to strive for. It's not.

I would say it can be something to strive for, but that in the doing the DM and players both need to be aware that an equation in a book is not going to take into account all the variables that may lead to things being harder (or easier!) than expected. Smart play in that context is to have a Plan B at all times. If everyone is on the same page with regard to that fact, then it can work just fine as a principle of challenge design.

 

[billd91]

Setup: PCs are 8th level, a caster-heavy group drained of resources, in a battle with an "atrophied" lich (has some lair and legendary lich abilities, capped as 11th level caster, reduced DCs, no phylactery so it won't stick around if there's a chance it could be destroyed) that had a Shield Guardian hidden nearby siphoning, then regenerating, damage. There's a complicated backstory, but let's stick to the fight part.

IF the battle keeps going as-is, it's a TPK. We paused in battle between session, so I have till next weekend to regroup.

It Got Out of Control When... The atrophied lich used its Lair tether ability (CON save or take half the damage the lich takes) and the Shield Guardian ability, combined with legendary actions to repeatedly cast Toll the Dead. I felt it's a fair tactic a genius-level bad guy would use, especially since he's been scrying the PCs for weeks now.

What the DM did to try and help... Threw in an alu-fiend that wanted out of a deal with the Boss and banked on the PCs being strong. She helped them find and take out the Shield Guardian. She has little to directly affect the Boss.

But, it's still too much... The Guardian is now down, but the atrophied lich is still renewing spells each round, doing great on HP, and tethering to the PC wizard. He's been scrying them for weeks now, so I've tailored his strategies to defeat their abilities. The PC fighter is on fumes. The PCs have exhausted their powers trying to keep her afloat.

So, damn, what do you do? I believe now the PCs should have been 9 or 10th level before this battle, my bad on that part. Too late now to correct. It's game on and if I play the Boss intelligently, it knows it's winning and simply has to spam Toll the Dead until everyone is dead. Looking for ways to throw in some (believable) chances for the PCs rather than mercilessly mow them down. Also, on a tangent, may approach the group again about limiting the # of attack cantrips one can cast between short rests. The fighter PC is probably not happy with cantrip spam at the moment...

OK, so when in a position like this, I would do a couple of things:
1) Review what's been going on carefully to make sure it's right. The tethering, for example, only lasts 1 round and can't be done 2 rounds in a row. That means the players have alternate rounds to lay the smackdown as much as they can when the lich isn't tethered. A good round of damage suffering and that phylacterially-challenged lich might be willing to bug out.
2) Change things up. Maybe instead of spamming the toll the dead cantrip, he should burn 2 of the legendary actions to use paralyzing touch. Add in a bit of monologue ("I have plans for you") as he reaches out to paralyze one of them. That might indicate that being defeated doesn't mean death and give them a brief respite from being cantripped to death.

Plus, do you give out inspiration? They might be in need of some given the difficulty of the fight. Say it's for their grit and heroism.