D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Fifth Element]

It's a big change in player-side philosophy: where it was once "I'll make the best of what the game gives me and see how it goes" it's now much more "I insist that the game give me what I want, right now". That the designers keep catering further to this with each passing edition is unfathomable, as doing so just encourages a type of thinking that IMO doesn't need any encouragement whatsoever.

Unfathomable that people who invest their time and money into a make-believe game should want to decide exactly how they want to play it?

It's amusing that people are supposed to want to emulate Conan and Elric and Fahfrd (according to Appendix N), but then be told they shouldn't want to emulate anything heroic because that is somehow entitled? Also amusing that it's always been "these are just guidelines, play however you want" but also "but not THAT way, if you play THAT way you're just being entitled!"

 

[overgeeked]

I spent a lot of years rolling up PCs, both in 3d6 Basic and 4d6 AD&D.

I don't agree that playing a concept I want to play is entitlement. RPGs are a type of entertainment and the player should have a say in it. Would you watch a Netflix like service where you have no control on what show you watch? You turn it on to watch the next episode of Stranger Things and it decides you can only watch Gilmore Girls? No. You want to watch what you want to watch. Time is too short to let dice determine if you're going to be a paladin or not.

What a terrible comparison. It’s more like turning on a show…and having no control over who the characters are. Like you already don’t. You know the genre. D&D. You know the show. D&D shenanigans, episode 7,543,210. And you somehow have control over the words and actions of one character. But…no control over what the character is good or bad at. How traumatic.

Besides: the longer I played the more me and my DMs cheated the chargen rules anyway, either the DM allowing a player to raise his highest score to the minimum anyway or the player "magically" rolling the exact scores they needed for the class and race they wanted to play.

If you want to pick a fight over players wanting options not normally allowed in a setting or but the DM, you might have a conversation worth exploring. But "you didn't roll a 16 dex, so no gnome illusionist for you!" is a relic of the game that can rot with

Me, I’ve played that way for decades. I’m bored of it. I’d rather be surprised and roll with whatever the dice give me. Flex muscles I haven’t used in awhile. Play pretend and work my imagination. Have as much fun as I can with something I didn’t plan on. See what I can do within some limits. See how creative I can be. See how I can overcome the “flaws” the dice give me. It’s way more fun.

level limits and strength capped by gender.

You’re 100% right about these two though.

 

[tetrasodium]

I spent a lot of years rolling up PCs, both in 3d6 Basic and 4d6 AD&D.

I don't agree that playing a concept I want to play is entitlement. RPGs are a type of entertainment and the player should have a say in it. Would you watch a Netflix like service where you have no control on what show you watch? You turn it on to watch the next episode of Stranger Things and it decides you can only watch Gilmore Girls? No. You want to watch what you want to watch. Time is too short to let dice determine if you're going to be a paladin or not.

Besides: the longer I played the more me and my DMs cheated the chargen rules anyway, either the DM allowing a player to raise his highest score to the minimum anyway or the player "magically" rolling the exact scores they needed for the class and race they wanted to play.

If you want to pick a fight over players wanting options not normally allowed in a setting or but the DM, you might have a conversation worth exploring. But "you didn't roll a 16 dex, so no gnome illusionist for you!" is a relic of the game that can rot with level limits and strength capped by gender.

It's not just the fact that arrays & pointbuy were added. 5e phb pg13 says:

• "you can use the following scores instead: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8."
• "You have 27 points to spend on your ability scores."

Compare that to 3.5dmg pg169

• "Standard Point Buy: All ability scores start at 8. Take 25 points to spread out among all abilities. For ability scores of 14 or lower, you buy additional points on a 1-for-1 basis. For ability scores higher than 14, it costs a little more (see the table below).This method allows for maximum customization, but you should expect each PC to have at least one really good score."
• "Nonstandard Point Buy:Use the standard point buy method, except that the player has fewer or more points for buying scores, as shown on the table below."
  • Low-powered campaign 15 points
  • Challenging campaign 22 points
  • Tougher campaign 28 points
  • High-powered campaign 32 points
• Elite Array: Use the following scores, arranged as desired: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8. These numbers (assuming they’re assigned to abilities in an appropriate way) produce characters with at least a decent score in every ability that’s important to the character’s class. This method is faster than the standard point buy method and is good for creating characters quickly. In fact, it’s the method we used to generate ability scores for the sample NPCs in Chapter 4 of this book.

Making the elite array into the default while getting rid of all other options is a serious shift towards "insisting on the perfect character rather than accepting the challenge of making the best of what the game gives you." as it was described earlier

 

[overgeeked]

Unfathomable that people who invest their time and money into a make-believe game should want to decide exactly how they want to play it?

When a large part of the game is about being surprised and not knowing what’s going to happen next? Yeah. Kinda. I mean, if you have the whole life of the character planned out in advance, what’s the point of playing them?

It's amusing that people are supposed to want to emulate Conan and Elric and Fahfrd (according to Appendix N), but then be told they shouldn't want to emulate anything heroic because that is somehow entitled? Also amusing that it's always been "these are just guidelines, play however you want" but also "but not THAT way, if you play THAT way you're just being entitled!"

Difference being the people who like emulating Appendix N are also generally okay with playing dirt-farmer Bob long enough so that he becomes Conan the Barbarian. Whereas those who don’t seem to generally want to start amazing and only get more amazing.

 

[Helldritch]

I knew I had seen the array somewhere. I knew it was supposed to be out of the roof as usual stat should go. Thank you to have pointed me the reference @tetrasodium .

 

[Umbran]

The mechanic itself is easy. As long as you try to rest outside the "normal" I will throw random encounters at you. This means that you will eventually have enough encounters to successfully rest.

Maybe I missed something in the interplay, but...

If they need to do X encounters, but due to bad luck they are low on hit points and out of spells after X-1... they're just screwed?

 

[Umbran]

I think it was Umbran who used to challenge people to tell us why they love a particular edition without shitting on other editions (paraphrased). That's a laudable goal. If you're going to claim that it's just change, not necessarily for the better or worse, don't use language that shits on the games that other people enjoy.

I have, but that originally came from Piratecat. In its original form it is more like, "I dare you to describe what is completely and absolutely awesome about your favorite game WITHOUT comparing it to any other game."

 

[overgeeked]

What’s wild about the elite…er, standard array is that people complain it’s not enough. It makes “weak” characters. Despite, you know, being above average in four, average in one, and below average in one stat.

 

[Thunderfoot]

LOL. Who's focused on being literal? Conan is just one example of many. Appendix N is FULL of pulp fiction and sci-fi novels. Which, at the time, were in no way considered "literature" by people who studied literature. They were pop culture, just pop culture in a different form. A form you were used to.


The point is that your post, while ending with "things are just different, not necessarily better", was full of very dismissive language describing exactly how things have changed. You claim that it's not necessarily bad, just bad for you, but when you describe current characters as "loud-mouthed punks" and recent fantasy worlds as "homogenized" as opposed to the older "unique fantasy worlds", it belies any claim of neutrality.

I think it was Umbran who used to challenge people to tell us why they love a particular edition without shitting on other editions (paraphrased). That's a laudable goal. If you're going to claim that it's just change, not necessarily for the better or worse, don't use language that shits on the games that other people enjoy.

Okay, I get it. Mia culpa. It wasn't my intent, but I see your POV. I'm old, I sometimes can't see the forest for the trees.

 

[David Howery]

Besides: the longer I played the more me and my DMs cheated the chargen rules anyway, either the DM allowing a player to raise his highest score to the minimum anyway or the player "magically" rolling the exact scores they needed for the class and race they wanted to play.

I don't remember out and out cheating, but I remember a lot of 'rolling up lotsa PCs.' One really common thing was not rolling '3d6 in order', but 'rolling 3d6 6 times, and rearrange them as you please.' Even back in those olden days, you had players who liked particular classes, and letting them rearrange stats let that happen. I really don't remember much of 'roll in order and play what the dice say.'