D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Micah Sweet]

Where was that order used? And how is it less weird than SDCIWCh? Besides familiarity.

3rd ed I think.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well the game wasn't designed to go high level for most PCs so a meh INT wizard or WIS cleric won't be hurt.

That was true until it wasn't. The longest played character I ever played was a 15th Level MU when I stopped playing D&D for many years. It'd have been pretty irritating if he could use his theoretically-available top two spell levels.

 

[Thomas Shey]

What's interesting to me is that once you get outside of a D&D-only perspective, a singular position on this matter makes little sense. No one picking up a GURPS book is ever going to not see the value in being able to make exactly the character you envision (within some well-understood relative-power constraint). Likewise, no one who ever had fun rolling up (and often pushing their luck and then having to start over) Traveller characters isn't going to realize the excitement one can derive from emergent-instead-of-chosen qualities. People can see the value in each and recognize how each can play out in different but equally enjoyable play experiences.

You can run into the problem of people who want to play a system for other reasons but hate the way the character is done, however. I didn't do anything with Traveller for many years for that reason, even though there were other things about it I quite liked (and it isn't the easiest system to patch that over with, either, because the randomness doesn't end at attributes).

 

[Thomas Shey]

I never owned/read those two, but I have the Holmes rulebook... and it seems to be written very clearly and understandable. But, of course, it only goes to level 3...

Holmes was a much better writer simply on purely technical grounds than Gygax.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I can understand being disappointed, but paladins are supposed to be quite rare under those rules. It's very clear. If you don't like it, and your DM is unwilling to compromise, you are welcome to play any of the all other editions of D&D where this is less of an issue.

That kind of dodges the point about why you list rules for and take up space with a class that if done in the traditional fashion, most groups will never see. It seems tantamount to a bait-and-switch.

 

[overgeeked]

guidelines more than actual rules.

This is the way...for every single rule in the game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That kind of dodges the point about why you list rules for and take up space with a class that if done in the traditional fashion, most groups will never see. It seems tantamount to a bait-and-switch.

NPC paladins (including paladin organizations; I'm imagining something like Jedi) and lucky players. NPCs were built like PCs in those days you will recall. Worldbuilding used to be a huge part of D&D.

 

[Willie the Duck]

You can run into the problem of people who want to play a system for other reasons but hate the way the character is done, however. I didn't do anything with Traveller for many years for that reason, even though there were other things about it I quite liked (and it isn't the easiest system to patch that over with, either, because the randomness doesn't end at attributes).

Oh there are absolutely people who will not like a given game, and possibly even have a strong negative association to a game based on their preferences on the question of 'build a character based on preferences' or 'work with emergent output' mechanics. It just seems that we rarely have bitter and depressing arguments about them because people can look at them and think, 'okay, I see the pros and cons of this and can take it or leave it.'

 

[Minigiant]

That was true until it wasn't. The longest played character I ever played was a 15th Level MU when I stopped playing D&D for many years. It'd have been pretty irritating if he could use his theoretically-available top two spell levels.

I understand that completely. I never got how some races had level limits and some classes had level limit.

But that goes to the times.

The fans of those days could only relate to base humans so "demihumans" were limited, on decline, or non-serious jokes.

Today, new he's have been weaned on weird races by TV and Movies. So they don't need human centric parties and settings to relate.

I have my favorite Ninja Turtle, Skeet Shark, Biker Mouse, Smurf, Disney Duck, and X-Man.

 

[Remathilis]

But that's the game they agreed to. If the DM wants to throw the player a bone so they can play an elf (I would), that perfectly fine, but they are not obligated to because the player rolled poorly. Asking for an exception is fine. Not accepting "no" for an answer (if that's what you get) is not.

The point isn't that the DM is enforcing the RAW, it is that the RAW itself was bad. It is an arbitrary restriction that adds nothing to the fun and is personally nonsensical, but DMs will use it just because it's RAW. Which is why the RAW has to change. A Good DM should probably look at the situation and make an exception since it harms little and increases fun and goodwill. A lesser DM will enforce it because it's the Rules and try to justify not only its inclusion but its necessity.