D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Remathilis]

Just out of curiosity, did any of those PCs actually die? If so, were they brought back?

Well, I had one permadeath and one who was permadead but brought back due to DM magic (it was Ravenloft and returned as a revenant after making a deal with the Dark Powers). But barring an odd stint in 3.5 where PC deaths ran rampant, I didn't exactly kill a lot of PCs to begin with.
In my friend's out of the Abyss game, death was a little more common (we lost two PCs in the early levels).

 

[Cadence]

Cute. By the end of 2e: I had removed level limits, removed most race/class restrictions, eased alignment restrictions for some classes, added max HP at first level, increased spells known for wizards, allowed max HP/spell refresh on a rest, and had begun the process of rebalancing ability scores to fix the dependency of 15+ scores to get a bonus. I also had allowed any race to multi-class or dual-class. I had started fixing the Thief class to give them some much needed combat ability beyond the highly situational and often useless backstab.

When I was much deeper into 3e, I had likewise started to fix issues with that (cantrip like abilities that were at will, fighter only feats that added to endurance, etc) that 5e corrected later (after I made a brief stop in Pathfinder due to not liking how 4e tried to fix said problems).

So yeah, it wasn't literal, but many of the ideas I added to fix issues ended up being fixed more elegantly in the next edition. I wager my scant 5e house rules (bonus spells for sorcerer and ranger) will be part of the new version in 2024. I didn't predict every change, but WotC seems to think the things that bother me are important enough to fix in later edition.

How long did it take you to morph 2e into the final form you had it?

I didn't make anywhere close to that many changes in 2e... but thought the ones 3e made that headed that way were very natural and so didn't have much edition change yet.

As an aside, when does a hacked version of an edition have enough changes that it's almost like a custom heartbreaker than the base edition for the discussion? (Were your changes to 2e bigger than base PFs to 3e, for example?). Does it matter?

 

[Helldritch]

Ha... that is a different experience than mine.
I have seen more TPK in 5ed than in anyother edition.
Survivability is so high that players used to take the "easy" solution, since I will heal over long rest. They used to really extend their capacity. It is only when I went full grimdark and gritty realism (my version of it) that TPK ceased. By being more careful and knowing that they would have to spend resource to actually heal that the players stopped acting like their actions could have repercussions. Now, in our current campaigns: OotA (second try for the young group) 4 death, 2 revived, 2 permanent ones. They are now level 11.
2nd group does various adventures (a mega dungeon). 12 death, 8 permanent ones, 2 characters remains from the original groups. All new characters are former henchmen/hirelings or npc that were rescued. Characters are around an average level 13 now (lowest is 12th highest is 16th). And that is but two campaigns. Do you understand why background does not ring so much interests for us?

 

[billd91]

Ha... that is a different experience than mine.
I have seen more TPK in 5ed than in anyother edition.
Survivability is so high that players used to take the "easy" solution, since I will heal over long rest. They used to really extend their capacity. It is only when I went full grimdark and gritty realism (my version of it) that TPK ceased. By being more careful and knowing that they would have to spend resource to actually heal that the players stopped acting like their actions could have repercussions. Now, in our current campaigns: OotA (second try for the young group) 4 death, 2 revived, 2 permanent ones. They are now level 11.
2nd group does various adventures (a mega dungeon). 12 death, 8 permanent ones, 2 characters remains from the original groups. All new characters are former henchmen/hirelings or npc that were rescued. Characters are around an average level 13 now (lowest is 12th highest is 16th). And that is but two campaigns. Do you understand why background does not ring so much interests for us?

I think that's an interesting observation and experience. I could certainly see how the relative ease of saving characters from death could lead to a bit of laxness as well as the reputation of 5e as "easy mode" leading to overconfidence and then overextension into vulnerability.

In my experience, death is pretty uncommon (the PCs are 11th level in the game I'm running) but there's also a substantial difference between 3e/PF play and 5e. With magic items being "special" again, there are a lot less self-tailored/purchased utility items like wands or scrolls of flying. And as a result, the group is relatively low on oddball utility magics that tend to make obstacles in dungeons too easy. They're back to more creative uses of what they have like in 1e/2e days. And that, to me, feels ideal.

 

[Remathilis]

How long did it take you to morph 2e into the final form you had it?

I didn't make anywhere close to that many changes in 2e... but thought the ones 3e made that headed that way were very natural and so didn't have much edition change yet.

As an aside, when does a hacked version of an edition have enough changes that it's almost like a custom heartbreaker than the base edition for the discussion? (Were your changes to 2e bigger than base PFs to 3e, for example?). Does it matter?

Well, I'd say it was over a six year period, but that's a little untrue. We spent a few years in BECMI and some ideas got ported from there, either intentionally or as badly-remembered rules. Some were used from the beginning, but others came out closer to 3e's announcement.

Our group didn't embrace 3e on release, so for a while one group (friends from home) were playing the morphed 2e after 3e was released as well, having drawn on ideas leaked from Eric Noah and Baldur's Gate 2/Icewind Dale. The larger changes like the ability scores and thief redo were proposed but never completed, as by that point resistance to 3e had waned enough that we just started playing that.

I'd say by the end, we weren't at fantasy heartbreaker territory, but if 3e had not come out when it did, we would probably have been there shortly. Loosening restrictions is easy, rewriting classes was going to be hard.

 

[Helldritch]

Well, I'd say it was over a six year period, but that's a little untrue. We spent a few years in BECMI and some ideas got ported from there, either intentionally or as badly-remembered rules. Some were used from the beginning, but others came out closer to 3e's announcement.

Our group didn't embrace 3e on release, so for a while one group (friends from home) were playing the morphed 2e after 3e was released as well, having drawn on ideas leaked from Eric Noah and Baldur's Gate 2/Icewind Dale. The larger changes like the ability scores and thief redo were proposed but never completed, as by that point resistance to 3e had waned enough that we just started playing that.

I'd say by the end, we weren't at fantasy heartbreaker territory, but if 3e had not come out when it did, we would probably have been there shortly. Loosening restrictions is easy, rewriting classes was going to be hard.

Hey, same experience here! We did not fully embraced 3ed at first. We went into test phase and it took about 6 months to end our campaigns and to actually start playing 3rd edition.

 

[Thomas Shey]

That is all fair. I'm also not arguing for a majority. That is a goal post shift.

Maybe you haven't, but I think there are people in this thread who've argued pretty close to it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

As aside, in my experience death while it was extremely common for the first 2-3 levels in OD&D started to drop off after that and fell off a cliff statistically as soon as there was a 7th level cleric anywhere in the ecosystem (remembering my experience back in the day involved a lot of interlocked groups, so all it needed one one or two there to make that be true).

(Its to be noted in games in the D&D-sphere you can also get things that look like odd artifacts; its actually proportionately more likely to end up with a TPK in PF2e than an individual death).

 

[Remathilis]

Hey, same experience here! We did not fully embraced 3ed at first. We went into test phase and it took about 6 months to end our campaigns and to actually start playing 3rd edition.

My group didn't embrace 3e until nearly 2002. The 2e games kept morphing into that direction, but it took a long time to reach the point we wanted to fully switch. 3.5 was an automatic switch, and oddly so was 4e until our group rejected it 7 months later. Pathfinder was a first day switch and the only time we switched mid campaign (3.5 to PF) 5e was about 4-5 months while we finished up our last PF game.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

You miss the reason why it's relevant, it's emphasis not a misquote. Adding magic items to already powerful characters creates a power level where that sort of threat is required to challenge players and the GM winds up coming off looking like a killer GM if anything goes wrong. Because lethality is so low players don't feel they need to strategize & really bring their A game as in past editions. modern d&d has attached so many of the GM's tools to the characters by default that the gm needs to start with a bunch of nerfs deny magic items or unload on players with stilted encounters that many would consider indications of abusive killer GM'ing

edit: That starts veering into a slightly different change than the tools that are no longer available for the GM to use

How do you define "Bringing your A game" in the framework of playing DnD.

Is taking 30 real time minutes to search for traps in a 10' square room by "roleplaying it" a higher level of play than comparing a DC to a Passive Perception score in 5 seconds and if so can you explain why in a factual way?

Simarly is playing a Human Fighter with innate abilities, feats, and powers a higher level of play than a Human Fighter that has none?