D&D 5E Familiars, what for?

[iserith]

And here you go, just a DM piling difficulties on players having a familiar just because he thinks it's right, with no consideration for the fun part of it from the players' side. It's just about finding reasons for players NOT to have familiars, without even having the straightforwardess of simply banning the spell so that players don't invest there.

Honestly, where's the harm as long as there is no real abuse ? You might say that you don't hate familiars, but you certainly make a great impression of it, as well as falling squarely within the type of behaviour described here.

Just for information, are you also counting the weight of OTHER spell components, one by one, in variant encumbrance ? Because with all these fights, I'm pretty sure that every caster needs a mule only, let me guess, there is a kill on sight order on mules too ?

Time as a resource and the cost or weight of some components exist whether or not the party wants to have 5 familiars. In the context of those things being true, I illustrated some of the risks and trade-offs with attempting to have a party of 5 PCs with familiars that they expect to use to deflect attacks regularly. That is not punishing familiars. It's just how the game works: it will cost you time (for the ritual), money (10 gp per casting), and inventory space (whatever that works out to). Players can make their decisions accordingly. Perhaps they think those things aren't a concern and carry on with their 5 attack deflection familiar strategy. Or perhaps they modify it or don't try it at all because they need the gold for something else. Maybe they only do it sometimes when it would really pay off. That's for the player to decide.

The question I would have is why you seem to look at this as a punishment for familiars and not just another meaningful choice a player makes in the context of the game. I find it unusual for someone to look at having to make meaningful decisions as "piling on difficulties" or that no consideration is given for the "fun part of it from the players' side." Do you imagine my players aren't having fun with this? Two PCs in the current party have familiars. I imagine if it was so terrible they wouldn't.

As for the mule, that would certainly be another thing for the PCs to need to protect. Same deal if they have a hireling or a henchman or some other valuable thing. It's a dangerous world of swords and sorcery, after all. The players in my current campaign use mules regularly. Sometimes they die. (As do the camels in the game I play in.) We're increasing our inventory space at the risk of losing money when the pack animal dies. We do what we can to mitigate that by positioning them well, buying them barding, and hiding them when we're not nearby. There's nothing punishing about that. It's just part of the game.

 

[iserith]

I know players who have completely stopped spending money on mounts or beasts of burden- between situations where they can't bring them along, situations where they are forced to abandon them, ambushes by bandits and hungry monsters, or then falling prey to random encounters while they were left outside whatever cave/crumbling ruin/hobgoblin fortress they are dealing with at the moment, they no longer see the point.

Even when I agree that I won't have enemies randomly kill or steal their mounts while they aren't physically standing within 20' of them, they still would rather walk!

Consider it from another viewpoint: You're spending a small amount of gold (relatively speaking, and depending on the campaign of course) for increased mobility, inventory space, and action economy, sometimes including attacks. (All of this depends on the type of animal, naturally.) Sometimes they soak an attack or even multiple attacks that could have been directed at a PC. Isn't that worth 8 gp, the cost of a mule?

 

[ECMO3]

Seeing an owl during the day could just mean something disturbed it's resting place.

I have owls on my property, I hear them regularly at night and in 20 years I have never seen one soaring above the property in broad daylight. I think if they are disturbed during the day they are most likely going to move to a shaded branch on the same tree where their hallow is, or maybe they will move to the next tree over. They are not going to take flight and start exploring the entire region in broad daylight.

I have actually seen bats during the day and would find it far easier to believe their roost was disturbed.

Moreover, in D&D world either could mean it was disturbed, but it is far more likely someone is using it to spy on you.

Kind of like seeing a drone flying through your neigborhood in Kiev right now - sure it could be a neigbor playing with a Drone he bought on Amazon, but it is more likely the Russian Army gathering intelligence and if you are a Ukrainian civilian you are going to throw your molotov cocktail at it.

 

[Cruentus]

Having played wizards with and without familiars, and DM'd for a 5e chain pact warlock with Imp, I still don't really think the familiar fits in with what 5e (or really all editions of DnD, are about). In the research I've done around familiars in mythology, folklore, etc., there is actually very little to indicate that they were "a thing" aside from the 'witch' and black cats or toads and some such. And even in those, and more modern cases (Harry Potter, Sabrina the Teenage Witch), familiars were never something taken on an adventure (willingly), and were more likely to be something that remained in your laboratory or home. The descriptions I most often see of them is: pet, companion, and/or trusted ally. Why would you bring your pet/companion/trusted ally anywhere to get "discorporated", cause really, they don't die since they're just spirits, and you can summon another one with minimal hassle.

I'm trying to figure out 1) do they even have a "role" for a spellcaster beyond scout extension, sometimes combat helper; or 2) do they need to be in the game at all.

I'm trying to brainstorm ideas for Familiars that would actually have them assist the spellcaster in some manner: be the source of learning new magics (in lieu of "automatically learn new spells"), perhaps function as a way to "prepare" additional spells above one's current max, impart ribbons/enhancements depending on the type of familiar - and all of these may or may not be available at level 1. And the most challenging: what do you do with the familiar when adventuring. Is it "in a pocket" until it isn't? Is it always out and about (I'm not talking about magic spirit stuff that you can tuck into pocket dimensions, I'm talking a real animal familiar)? Does it have to remain close? Can you leave it at home or in your tower and still get the benefits? If it is out and about, how does it get damaged? How does it avoid it? Etc. Maybe I'll post a brainstorming thread. I like the "idea" of familiars, but I find their execution lacking.

 

[Composer99]

I have owls on my property, I hear them regularly at night and in 20 years I have never seen one soaring above the property in broad daylight. I think if they are disturbed during the day they are most likely going to move to a shaded branch on the same tree where their hallow is, or maybe they will move to the next tree over. They are not going to take flight and start exploring the entire region in broad daylight.

I have actually seen bats during the day and would find it far easier to believe their roost was disturbed.

Moreover, in D&D world either could mean it was disturbed, but it is far more likely someone is using it to spy on you.

Kind of like seeing a drone flying through your neigborhood in Kiev right now - sure it could be a neigbor playing with a Drone he bought on Amazon, but it is more likely the Russian Army gathering intelligence and if you are a Ukrainian civilian you are going to throw your molotov cocktail at it.

So, despite you saying you agreed with me you're basically falling into the "context trap" I mentioned. You can't assume that your experiences and assumptions are universally shared.

(1) There are, in fact, plenty of owls with crepuscular or diurnal habits.

(2) The contextual points (1) and (2) that I made were intended to argue against the assumption that you can reasonably conclude a random animal that isn't wildly out of place is therefore a magical spy. In fact, in most settings that would be an inherently unreasonable assumption. If you're DMing, assume what you want, but in essence the usefulness of your assumptions ends as soon as we leave your table. If you see a bat out in the day in a D&D game, there's no reason to assume it's the equivalent of a drone in Kyiv unless the DM at your table says that's a normal assumption to make for their game.

 

[Joshy]

Yeah it mainly depends on your world settings. It would seem off in certain locations and the familiar might not even match the area.
My fantasy worlds are usually closer to medieval settings so there is a huge amount wildlife. I mainly have it like this because of the stories my great grandfather use to tell me about the good ol' days. Where from his words the sky was consonantly full of birds and there was a ton more wildlife around.

I think it mostly has to do with the environment, the npc's, and how wide spread magic is in general.

If you want a flying urban spy maybe a pigeon?
Just give a rat a fly speed and a random aggro generating aura?

 

[James Gasik]

Consider it from another viewpoint: You're spending a small amount of gold (relatively speaking, and depending on the campaign of course) for increased mobility, inventory space, and action economy, sometimes including attacks. (All of this depends on the type of animal, naturally.) Sometimes they soak an attack or even multiple attacks that could have been directed at a PC. Isn't that worth 8 gp, the cost of a mule?

Don't look at me, I'm not someone who makes those kinds of choices. Although I will, if possible, find ways to conjure a steed, like Phantom Steed, or a Figurine of Wondrous Power, because that solves a lot of the hassle.

It is obnoxious when you need to buy a new mount far from civilization though.

 

[iserith]

Don't look at me, I'm not someone who makes those kinds of choices. Although I will, if possible, find ways to conjure a steed, like Phantom Steed, or a Figurine of Wondrous Power, because that solves a lot of the hassle.

It is obnoxious when you need to buy a new mount far from civilization though.

I'm not sure about "obnoxious" but it can be harder, more expensive, or impossible, depending on where you are in the setting. That just ups the ante on protecting your mounts, allowing for more meaningful decisions. Spells can help here, of course.

As for not making those kinds of choices, is that because you don't want to or because those things aren't all that important in the contexts of the games you're playing?

 

[James Gasik]

Basically, the idea of not having mounts because they are sometimes inconvenient or get killed strikes me as silly. One of my first orders of business when a group I'm in gets some money is purchasing a cart or wagon. Early in the game there is going to be overland travel, and not everyone has tons of carrying capacity.

I'm always on the lookout for a base of operations as well, although many games I've been in are freewheeling treks across vast distances, so that isn't always viable without Teleporation Circle. The way I see it, as long as I'm not strapped for cash, there's no reason not to shell out for things that will make my life easier.

It is obnoxious, to me at least, when I'm out in the middle of nowhere and my horse just died- in this case it doesn't matter how much money I have, I'm now doing without.

Ideally, I'd have hirelings to keep watch wherever we've parked our rides, but most DM's I know don't like trying to keep track of extra NPC's, even if they are primarily non-combat ones.

I'm still not sure I want to bother with a familiar of my own in 5e just yet- I'd much rather have something like what the Chain Warlock gets, but the Warlock's mechanics would drive me nuts. Spam EB all day because who knows when I'll get the ability to cast a spell again? Yeah, no thanks.

 

[iserith]

Basically, the idea of not having mounts because they are sometimes inconvenient or get killed strikes me as silly. One of my first orders of business when a group I'm in gets some money is purchasing a cart or wagon. Early in the game there is going to be overland travel, and not everyone has tons of carrying capacity.

I'm always on the lookout for a base of operations as well, although many games I've been in are freewheeling treks across vast distances, so that isn't always viable without Teleporation Circle. The way I see it, as long as I'm not strapped for cash, there's no reason not to shell out for things that will make my life easier.

It is obnoxious, to me at least, when I'm out in the middle of nowhere and my horse just died- in this case it doesn't matter how much money I have, I'm now doing without.

Ideally, I'd have hirelings to keep watch wherever we've parked our rides, but most DM's I know don't like trying to keep track of extra NPC's, even if they are primarily non-combat ones.

I'm still not sure I want to bother with a familiar of my own in 5e just yet- I'd much rather have something like what the Chain Warlock gets, but the Warlock's mechanics would drive me nuts. Spam EB all day because who knows when I'll get the ability to cast a spell again? Yeah, no thanks.

I think it's important to play the game that's being presented. Certainly not all games will emphasize the value of a mount because overland travel is skipped over, for example, or because simple encumbrance is used instead of the variant rules. In those games, it'll probably be pretty situational when a mount or pack animal is useful.

If I'm running a pulp action, episodic serial hero style Eberron game, that wagon is probably not going to come in too handy because we're not really dealing with situations like that in many cases (except perhaps in the odd carriage chase scene or whatever). In a hexcrawl game, it probably will be handy and so might the hirelings to protect the mount pulling it. The PCs in my swamp hexcrawl game have a river boat with a crew currently. In the desert point crawl I'm playing, we use camels because having water for treks into the deep desert to plunder lost tombs is really important and barrels of water weigh a lot. When a camel dies, that water is basically wasted and it can mean that we have to divert or backtrack to a town, try to find an oasis (often guarded by deadly creatures), or barter with desert nomads at great cost. These are all interesting decision points that arise and help contribute to creating the emergent story.