M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[Hussar]

I wouldn't treat those the same way, and looking at the responses to the quotes, I've started to realize just how out of step I am with the modern gaming public. Maybe it's time to realize I've just passed into that stage of life where you're an old conservative fart, and that's the end of that. What's that Mitchell and Webb quote? Are we the baddies? Well, maybe I am.

Maybe I need to find a new hobby. What do they say? Awareness is never gained without pain.

Good luck and best wishes to everyone.

Well, that's kind of the point though. As difficult as it might be to talk about, the point is to keep talking. Yeah, there are always going to be people who go too far in their reactions. And "too far" will always depend on the observer. But, keep engaging is the point. No one should ever be considered a bad person for liking Bill Cosby, for example. I totally understand why someone would. He's bloody funny. Let's be fair here, he's one of the greatest comedians of the 20th century. But, he's also a multiple rapist. So, you have to decide - do you publicly state that you like listening to Bill Cosby or not? You know that if you do, it will likely result in push back. "How can you listen to that guy" isn't a totally unreasonable reaction. So, do you engage or simply go on your day and get on with your business?

I mean, heck, I'm pretty far on the left here but I LOVE Jimmy Carr. I do. I find him and 8 out of 10 Cats to be unbelievably funny. Yup, sometimes he goes too far. Totally understand why people would react that way to him. And I'm never going to defend him either. He absolutely knows that what he does is going to land him in hot water. Same goes for Jeremy Clarkson - another comedian/personality that I watch even though he does make me cringe as well.

I guess my advice is to separate yourself from the discussion and try to keep some perspective. If you unreservedly declare your support for something like Lovecraft, as a good example, yes, people are going to judge you for that. Absolutely you are going to be judged for that. The question you have to ask yourself is, are you okay with that? If you're not okay with being judged for liking Lovecraft, again, as a complete hypothetical, then some self-examination is in order. Why does it bother you that someone might think you're a racist for liking something that lots of people think is racist?

I don't propose to have answers here. I'm just trying to have a conversation. I don't know. If I did know, I'd probably be making a lot more money that I do. But, all we can do is sort of muddle on and keep engaging.

 

[shannona]

That really is extraordinary from my POV as well.

I read that footnote to my wife with some disagree of exasperation and rhetorically asked, "How naughty word cowardly is that!?"

Of course, I don't know anything about Amina Inloes or her situation c. 2017. At the age of 25 I likely would still have been susceptible to pressure not to ruin someone's reputation; at the age of 50, I'd write a footnote dragging anyone up and down the sidewalk until they were bloody if they tried to pressure me into withholding information for non-fiction I was writing.

 

[aramis erak]

What religions adopt the Anglo-American criminal burden of proof as an obligation?

And it’s untrue that “basic human decency” means adopting this criminal burden of proof for all our interactions and decisions. Nobody does this on the regular. It’s a fake moral standard that gets whipped out when we don’t like what’s being said or we do like the person it’s being said about.

"Judge not lest ye be judged" is part of Christian theology, specifcally Matthew 7:2

7
1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

There are less explicit elements in several other places and contexts within the NT. I'm not digging them out; the point is clear enough above.

The Old Testament - especially in Isaiah, talks about Justice belonging to the LORD. Also in Psalms several times.

Not bearing false witness is in the Ten Commandments - which appear multiple places; If one is not at least to preponderance, one has no idea if they are bearing false witness or not in condemning someone.

Islam shares the same prohibition on false witness, but also gives formulation for proof acceptable - for what level . (I don't recall the specifications.)

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

"Judge not lest ye be judged" is part of Christian theology, specifcally Matthew 7:2

That verse means "don't call the pot black if you're the kettle," not "you have to absolutely prove someone's guilt to a sin before you judge them for it."

 

[Hussar]

Guys. I’m not a mod but you guys are WAY over the board rules line of no religion here. Please stop

 

[Umbran]

What religions adopt the Anglo-American criminal burden of proof as an obligation?

"Judge not lest ye be judged" is part of Christian theology, specifcally Matthew 7:2

Mod Note:
Folks, we do have a bar on discussion real-world religion, and you are both engaged in it. Please drop this line of discussion.

 

[Jer]

On flawed creatives in general: for the most part, I don’t have a problem continuing to enjoy the output I liked before revelations of their darker natures. So I still listen to old Bill Cosby comedy bits, watch early Woody Allen films, and read HPL. But once I learn of reprehensible behavior, I make a choice about whether or not the new data means I shouldn’t consume new works by them.

One thing tho is that once you know about their behavior/beliefs it bleeds into enjoyment of their work. Cosby's stand up work especially hits hard when you realize what a misogynistic undercurrent it has and what it means given what we know about him now.

But for me the consumption of work by a creator when I know they're a bigot/Nazi/rapist/etc. is part of me being careful about what I consume in media. Most folks avoid eating poison, but don't think twice about consuming media that might be "poisonous" to their minds. We pick up things subconsciously from the media we consume and knowing that a creator was, say, a Nazi symp, helps to be on guard against consuming something poisonous from his works. I always try to read critically these days anyway, but the extra background helps to understand what you're reading.

According to Shannon Appelcline over at RPG.net Barker's pseudonymous novel has been used as neo-Nazi indoctrination material and was published by the same publisher as the Turner Diaries. Appelcline's article says everything I've been trying to articulate about this idea better than I'm able to so I'm going to drop a link to it here - I think Shannon is right about all of this.

Advanced Designers & Dragons #63: The Fall of Tékumel - RPGnet

 

[billd91]

religious stuff

Religious discussion aside, there's a good point to not being judgmental or hypocritical in the judgments we make. But that's a far cry from holding someone to account for the stuff we can show they did or associated with. And that evidence against Barker is pretty bad. The very idea that someone could look at the history of the Nazis and make a positive judgment about it to the point of writing in support of its ideology or serving on an anti-Semitic editorial board really is pretty damning.

 

[darjr]

Religious discussion aside, there's a good point to not being judgmental or hypocritical in the judgments we make. But that's a far cry from holding someone to account for the stuff we can show they did or associated with. And that evidence against Barker is pretty bad. The very idea that someone could look at the history of the Nazis and make a positive judgment about it to the point of writing in support of its ideology or serving on an anti-Semitic editorial board really is pretty damning.

I. Can’t. Believe. This. Needs. Stating.

but apparently it does.

 

[heks]

in the mid 90s, when i first started seriously getting into political theory and, in particular, antifascism, i made it a point to explore as much contemporary fascist work as i could to get a better understanding of what i was up against, so, having actually read the book, let me assure you- it is absolutely not, in any way, satirising white supremacy or neo-nazi views and barker was well known for his beliefs in certain circles.
(it feels a little strange to me, honestly, because i knew who he was due to that long before i was aware of his rpg work outside of simply knowing the name 'empire of the petal throne' as something from way before i got into gaming.)