M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?


log in or register to remove this ad

darjr

I crit!
I doubt anyone outside a very small circle will ever know. They can only make themselves look worse by admitting to exactly how long they sat on it. There’s no upside for them letting that out. So it likely won’t happen.
I’m certain a particular archivist or fellow RPG creator thought the very same thing.
 

Hussar

Legend
Bingo. Which is why I don't really mind that most D&D settings resemble theme parks.
Which, isn't that exactly what I just said? That we lampshade the icky bits in service to the game?

Sure, I might have said it a bit stronger than that, but, frankly, I'm not sure why I'm getting much push back here. The basic point was that fantasy as a genre tends to overlook the icky bits so we can have fun. Doesn't change anything, but, it is good to recognize that fact. I'd almost go a step further and say that the reason that so many people push back whenever these types of issues - Lovecraft, now Barker, whatever- come up is because of a lack of self reflection as to just how much we do elide over when we play these games.
 

Hussar

Legend
Lovecraft and Barker are different, it seems that people bringing up HPL are going out of their way to try to defend Barker. While HPL was wrong in a lot of what he thought, it is also important to remember that he could have been mentally ill, and psychology papers have been written on such. HPL suffered under delusions, as well as in homelessness, indigence, and after being bedridden, death. Some think he actually believed Cthulhu to be real. His delusional racism, was also punishing, to be forced to live in paranoid fear of other people. Mental health officials will say that some issues of persecution of a religious, or racial issues are not uncommon. Ultimately as far as we can despise his feelings, we also simply don't know their origin, and it is wrong to demonize the mentally ill.

Barker is completely different, he chose to be a nazi, in the full grasp of his faculties.
I'd say the basic point still remains. The notion of "Occupy Tekumel" is a good one. Let's take the good ideas, and then consign the creators to a footnote. I mean, how many people enjoy Lovecraftian horror, which is a pretty broad genre, that have probably never read Lovecraft? And that's a good thing.
 


MGibster

Legend
Sure, I might have said it a bit stronger than that, but, frankly, I'm not sure why I'm getting much push back here. The basic point was that fantasy as a genre tends to overlook the icky bits so we can have fun.
The only pushback you're getting from me is equating feudalism with totalitarianism. And the reason you're getting pushback is because I've noticed a rather cynical trend in online circles pushing the narrative that everything in the past was just terrible or that people were trash. And looking through the past with such a cynical lens distorts it just as much as looking at it through rose colored lenses.

And I don't mind saying that I tend to overlook the icky bits of just about every period of time in my games. While I don't exactly ignore racism and sexism in my 1920s Call of Cthulhu games, it's also not as prevalent in my games as it was in the United States during the era. i.e. I tone it down quite a bit.
 

dragoner

KosmicRPG.com
I'd say the basic point still remains. The notion of "Occupy Tekumel" is a good one. Let's take the good ideas, and then consign the creators to a footnote. I mean, how many people enjoy Lovecraftian horror, which is a pretty broad genre, that have probably never read Lovecraft? And that's a good thing.
For me, no, it's ruined. So I would disagree.
 

Hussar

Legend
The only pushback you're getting from me is equating feudalism with totalitarianism. And the reason you're getting pushback is because I've noticed a rather cynical trend in online circles pushing the narrative that everything in the past was just terrible or that people were trash. And looking through the past with such a cynical lens distorts it just as much as looking at it through rose colored lenses.

And I don't mind saying that I tend to overlook the icky bits of just about every period of time in my games. While I don't exactly ignore racism and sexism in my 1920s Call of Cthulhu games, it's also not as prevalent in my games as it was in the United States during the era. i.e. I tone it down quite a bit.
Fair enough. We got to the point eventually. :D

I mean, I've been watching the discussion around lots of the board games we've been playing as well. The point is, the past is a pretty dark place sometimes and that is generally not reflected in our games.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Well, by definition, any healthy artistic culture is going to be mostly mediocre. The exceptional is always an exception, but when lots of workman mediocrity is being produced and consumed, the exceptional work is more likely to be attempted.
1648371796766.png
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Precisely: and the next logical step is, the more of something there is overall, the larger that 10% will be in absolute terms.
Yep.

Which is also envisioned by the nature of a pie graph. As the pie gets larger, that outer edge increases, but it’s percentage of the circumference remains constant.
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
True, but right now I think the problematic elements are few. Present, but few.
Maybe. Like I said, I know virtually nothing about the setting.

But a rereleased EotPT might be well served by not only having its inherently problematic aspects modified or excised, but also refreshed from top to bottom with (potentially) better writing, art, etc. A complete overhaul, if you will. It might even be expanded & fleshed out.
 

But when it comes to artistic and creative endeavours, good luck finding any two people in the whole field (no matter how big the pie happens to be) who would draw the line between 'crap' and 'not crap' in the same place. People like season 6 of Buffy. People were fanatical Twilight fans. People thought the Snyder cut made Justice League into something other than a bad movie. All these people are objectively wrong, but they're out there! ;p There's no accounting for taste. Some of the 90% that's crap to me might be the exceptional life-changing artistic lightning bolt that burns its name into someone else's soul.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
But when it comes to artistic and creative endeavours, good luck finding any two people in the whole field (no matter how big the pie happens to be) who would draw the line between 'crap' and 'not crap' in the same place. People like season 6 of Buffy. People were fanatical Twilight fans. People thought the Snyder cut made Justice League into something other than a bad movie. All these people are objectively wrong, but they're out there! ;p There's no accounting for taste. Some of the 90% that's crap to me might be the exceptional life-changing artistic lightning bolt that burns its name into someone else's soul.
Sturgeon’s Law does not account for taste, true.

OTOH, I, knowing Sturgeon’s Law, fully accept that there are things I love which may be in/that are in that 90%, and I’m fine with that. I can probably even point some them out to others if they think I’m deceiving myself.

Hell- if I’m honest, some of them I use to nettle those who cop superior attitudes in a given area.
 
Last edited:



People thought the Snyder cut made Justice League into something other than a bad movie.
I haven't seen it, but I have seen the original and I must assume that Snyder cut must be better, as I literally cannot imagine how it would be humanly possible to make that film any worse! Granted, this doesn't necessarily mean that it would still actually be good!
 



An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top