D&D General Not Railroad, Not Sandbox ... What else is there?

[Maxperson]

And I'm telling you that specific thing is what makes it not linear.

And you are wrong. What makes THE ADVENTURE linear is that it exists in a manner that can only be completed in a line.

You can choose to do something else. You can depart from the line.

Departing from the line doesn't mean that the adventure itself isn't linear. It means that you are no longer a part of that particular adventure unless you get back in line again.

If you cannot depart from the line, it's a railroad. And if you can depart from the line, it was never linear to begin with.

No. That's not what linear adventure and railroad mean. It's entirely about choice. Google it man. It's all about forcing the PCs and removing choice from them.

 

[hawkeyefan]

The sentences are easily rectifiable when you notice, at no time did I say it was problematic. This is what free play means. Was I happy about the player losing his character to terrible choices? Of course not. The players “job” is to make their own decisions and figure out how to navigate the consequences for good or ill. The DMs “ job” is the create an internally consistent game settings and make it fun and exciting. ( hopefully)
I present it the way I do because I have experienced many DMs who will distort game world reality and logic to save players from themselves. Not a problem either but a DM doing that tends to destroy suspension of disbelief and ruins the challenges the game is presenting

You absolutely did say it was problematic. You shared the story about the player of the paladin and his quest to get a holy avenger as being an example of the problem with too much freedom. You said that sandbox play is counterproductive to what RPGs should be.

So my question is… since it seems that you also think it’s problematic for the GM to direct things … how do you solve that problem?

How do you limit player freedom without directing things?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I need no evidence, this is neither an argument nor a legal proceeding. I am simply conferring first person experience. Was there, used those labels, had a common understanding what they meant, witnessed said terms used by many others. I am not sure why any of this is an issue unless someone is trying to claim they invented the concept or terminology. If that is the case then I simply state they are incorrect. I have no dog in that fight, just telling it like it is.

Well, people on the internet can say whatever they want, it's having some kind of evidence that backs it up. The reading I've done very clearly puts the use of sandbox as coming from the video game world (they are way further advanced in analysis of techniques) and being adopted into use by the TTRPG community. If you claim you used it, ok, but it's pretty clear that your observance was of a small corner of the hobby and that such usage wasn't at all widespread. If it were, we'd see it's use in the contemporary writings, of which there are many and that focus largely around topics where "sandbox" would be a useful term. It's not there, so it wasn't in wide use in the hobby. You essentially have the hipster claim of "I was doing that before it was cool." Bully, but not distinguishable from an internet tall tale.

Let's not forget that this whole side trek was initiated by you telling @estar they were wrong. That doesn't align to your claimed goals here.

 

[Torranocca]

Well, people on the internet can say whatever they want, it's having some kind of evidence that backs it up. The reading I've done very clearly puts the use of sandbox as coming from the video game world (they are way further advanced in analysis of techniques) and being adopted into use by the TTRPG community. If you claim you used it, ok, but it's pretty clear that your observance was of a small corner of the hobby and that such usage wasn't at all widespread. If it were, we'd see it's use in the contemporary writings, of which there are many and that focus largely around topics where "sandbox" would be a useful term. It's not there, so it wasn't in wide use in the hobby. You essentially have the hipster claim of "I was doing that before it was cool." Bully, but not distinguishable from an internet tall tale.

Let's not forget that this whole side trek was initiated by you telling @estar they were wrong. That doesn't align to your claimed goals here.

If you are looking for an argument, please move along. As I said, I have no dog in the fight. I simply don’t give weight to the claims as I know them to fail to mesh with reality. One can certainly claim their own understanding of events they were part of, that I can certainly grant to you. But to claim to know a thing to be true in a place and time you were not present is baffling. To claim to know what others thought or understood of a concept before you, is vacuous. Anyone is free to claim what ever credit they think is their due. Just leaves me unconvinced as I have experienced something completely different. Choose to die on that hill if it suits you but it is just shadow boxing an imagined opponent who is not there.Truth does not change, only perception. It’s all good! No harm no foul

 

[Ovinomancer]

If you are looking for an argument, please move along. As I said, I have no dog in the fight. I simply don’t believe the claims as I know them to fail to mesh with reality. Anyone is free to claim what ever credit they think is theirs. Just leaves me unconvinced as I have experienced something completely different. Choose to die on that hill if it suits you but it is just shadow boxing. Truth does not change only perception. It’s all go

And I'm saying the same thing to you -- your claims fail to mesh with reality. I don't understand why you seem to claim the privilege while telling me I shouldn't.

As far as free to claim whatever, yes. But in this discussion, there is evidence to support @estar's claim, and evidence that cuts against your claim. Since their useful discussion song the use and origin of the term "sandbox", a claim to that that has evidence holds more value than a claim that has evidence against it. You very well may have used the term, but that would have been idiosyncratic to your sliver if the hobby and it did not grow from there. We can tell because none of the print shows its use until the early aughts. If it was widespread, you need to find a theory that explains why a widespread term was avoided in writing.

 

[Torranocca]

And I'm saying the same thing to you -- your claims fail to mesh with reality. I don't understand why you seem to claim the privilege while telling me I shouldn't.

As far as free to claim whatever, yes. But in this discussion, there is evidence to support @estar's claim, and evidence that cuts against your claim. Since their useful discussion song the use and origin of the term "sandbox", a claim to that that has evidence holds more value than a claim that has evidence against it. You very well may have used the term, but that would have been idiosyncratic to your sliver if the hobby and it did not grow from there. We can tell because none of the print shows its use until the early aughts. If it was widespread, you need to find a theory that explains why a widespread term was avoided in writing.

Oh boy( face palm) this has slipped into the twilight zone. I claim no privileges or credit for anything. I did not invent the concepts or the labels for them, they were in common usage with the players I knew, myself and the circles I traveled in…. In the 1980s.Wave your banners and plant your flags if that is what brings you happiness. It is not a problem for me. I make no claim to fame. Apparently you do. I don’t, for the life of me, understand why you care if my experiences match with yours or not. Throw a parade for yourself, it is all good. You don’t get to change mine or anyone else’s experiences. Move on, please I have nothing new to add, finished, done, complete….. good day then.

 

[pemerton]

As an answer to the question asked in the title of this thread: this.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Oh boy( face palm) this has slipped into the twilight zone. I claim no privileges or credit for anything. I did not invent the concepts or the labels for them, they were in common usage with the players I knew, myself and the circles I traveled in…. In the 1980s.Wave your banners and plant your flags if that is what brings you happiness. It is not a problem for me. I make no claim to fame. Apparently you do. I don’t, for the life of me, understand why you care if my experiences match with yours or not. Throw a parade for yourself, it is all good. You don’t get to change mine or anyone else’s experiences. Move on, please I have nothing new to add, finished, done, complete….. good day then.

So long as you stop using your claims to tell others they are wrong while demanding you are insulated from the same, happy to oblige.

 

[Torranocca]

So long as you stop using your claims to tell others they are wrong while demanding you are insulated from the same, happy to oblige.

I mean this in the nicest way you can possibly interpret it. Move along. This discussion is a moot point. My experiences don’t change and your claim have no validity to me. Nor is it important to me in any case. I in no way invalidate your claims to you or others. Those are your experiences. Time to move on to more interesting discussions, yes?

 

[Ovinomancer]

I mean this in the nicest way you can possibly interpret it. Move along. This discussion is a moot point. My experiences don’t change and your claim have no validity to me. Nor is it important to me in any case. I in no way invalidate your claims to you or others. Those are your experiences. Time to move on to more interesting discussions, yes?

So long as we're agreed that you don't plan on calling others' wrong for presenting evidence of their claims, we're good, like I said last post.