D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Ovinomancer]

So you don't have your characters think or act differently when at 120 hp vs. 60 hp vs. 10 hp? (Not 120 vs 110, or 60 vs. 58, or 10 vs. 9, but 120 vs. 60 vs. 10).

I find it kind of strange that one wouldn't.

Of course, but the reason is that the player making choices is religion on the hp total. There is no in fiction rain for it that isn't as hoc created by the player to justify the decision.

And this is fine so long as we're not pretending otherwise.

And I find it odd that just because the game doesn't give specifics about why, that one couldn't have a generic "wow, I'm pretty beat up" without specifying.

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Do ability scores have any meaning in the fictional universe to the characters? If so, what?

So, here's my exercise on this. The orc settings a sword at a fighter, the fighter sidesteps and brushes the blue side at the last moment.

What happened mechanically? Was this a it? A miss? Was there hp damage? Everyone will answer this differently because there are not any cues to this fiction that would be required by mechanics and it can describe a hit, a miss, loss of half hit points, loss of a few, or anything in between.

 

[tetrasodium]

Sure he does. He still controls when events happen exterior to the PCs, and if the PCs get to a spot before a particular villain is there or event is going to happen, they can just take some downtime. And that's not even counting time that lands between anything happening at all. Healing and travel time are pacing mechinisms, but they're hardly the only ones.



Except that doesn't influence, it virtually mandates. There's nothing softer than telling someone if they don't do something you'll bring eminent domain to bear.

Now the players do not need to stop for any narratively meaningful period of time and don't face any meaningful risk stopping wherever they happen to be. Magic items were expected and required. By the system. That was critical for why influence over monitary rewards was a way to project soft power in the past. Now in modern d&d gold has no value and there is no need for players to buy anything but basic armor & a magic weapon if they do not find one. Your attempts at vilification fall flat by missing the actual application & targeting random windmills as giants .. I have no idea what you think eminent domain spies to but certainly not anything we've been discussing.

 

[Cadence]

Of course, but the reason is that the player making choices is religion on the hp total. There is no in fiction rain for it that isn't as hoc created by the player to justify the decision.

And this is fine so long as we're not pretending otherwise.

So, here's my exercise on this. The orc settings a sword at a fighter, the fighter sidesteps and brushes the blue side at the last moment.

What happened mechanically? Was this a it? A miss? Was there hp damage? Everyone will answer this differently because there are not any cues to this fiction that would be required by mechanics and it can describe a hit, a miss, loss of half hit points, loss of a few, or anything in between.

You reversed it, didn't you? My original quote was addressing the question "My pc hits your pc for 5hp of damage. What happened in the fiction?"

Anyway...

The thief goes up to the lock and turns the dial, and the safe opens. Did the thief get the right combination? Was it a timed lock set to open right then? Was the locking mechanism broken?

The bard tries to seduce the person they need to question, and their target follows them home. Are they really seduced? Were they actually playing the bard and going to follow anyway? Are they something not even susceptible to charm?

The cleric casts a "Cure Wounds Spell" on the fighter who is complaining. Did the spell actually go off?

The wizard casts a fireball on the ogres that just turned the corner in the bare stone hallway and are running towards her. None of them die. Is there any way for the caster to know if the room they're in magically changes fire spells to illusions of fire spells? Is there any way for the ogres to know?

 

[Remathilis]

.

So, here's my exercise on this. The orc swings a sword at a fighter, the fighter sidesteps and brushes the blade aside at the last moment.

What happened mechanically? Was this a hit? A miss? Was there hp damage? Everyone will answer this differently because there are not any cues to this fiction that would be required by mechanics and it can describe a hit, a miss, loss of half hit points, loss of a few, or anything in between.

You can even further complicate the question based on the fighter's dexterity and armor worn, which could determine if the armor deflected the strike, or the fighter's natural agility (or lack of) played a role in it. And that's not even considering things like a battlemaster's parry maneuver, the defensive duelist feat, or the dodge action.

But the answer is the orc misses and the fighter still takes damage. Damage on a miss baby! [emoji12]

 

[Ovinomancer]

You reversed it, didn't you? My original quote was addressing the question "My pc hits your pc for 5hp of damage. What happened in the fiction?"

Anyway...

The thief goes up to the lock and turns the dial, and the safe opens. Did the thief get the right combination? Was it a timed lock set to open right then? Was the locking mechanism broken?

Presumably, a skill check was involved? If the check was successful, then the result in the fiction is that the lock opens. How or details are item, but was have a clear and required fictional outcome from the mechanic. It's only if another mechanic intervenes that something else happens it if the check wasn't called without secret inputs.

The bard tries to seduce the person they need to question, and their target follows them home. Are they really seduced? Were they actually playing the bard and going to follow anyway? Are they something not even susceptible to charm?

Same as the above -- clear fictional outcome to the check. The rest of this is mostly adding additional fiction to the situation that negates the check or modified it.

The cleric casts a "Cure Wounds Spell" on the fighter who is complaining. Did the spell actually go off?

Yes, unless there's some other discoverable reason it would not. What it does in the fiction is unclear -- there is no required fictional change here. There is a mechanical one.

The wizard casts a fireball on the ogres that just turned the corner in the bare stone hallway and are running towards her. None of them die. Is there any way for the caster to know if the room they're in magically changes fire spells to illusions of fire spells? Is there any way for the ogres to know?

If so, then there's some mechanic in play that has a required fictional outcome. Otherwise, fireball inflict hitpoint damage to the ogres, but there's no required fiction for the hp loss., only a mechanical one.

 

[Hussar]

Ten rounds ago when Heliax the Enduring had 120, your blade has either slipped past his dodging, parrying, and/or armor to cut slightly, or maybe bruise him, or perhaps tire him a bit, or maybe spend some amount of fortune's smiles that he had acrued - the lens is cloudy who can say - but in any case death has moved a tiny bit closer.

Five rounds ago when he had been at 65, your stroke bruises, cuts, strains, or taxes him - the scene is obscured so which is hard to tell. In any case some would now remark he is "bloodied" (in the vernacular of the land), that is, half-way to death, even if no blood has necessarily been shed.

Three rounds ago your blade again did enough to task his endurance and brawn and resistance and body, in spite of armor and parrying and dodging - there is a fog of battle, it is hard to be sure which and how - so that he is now much closer to death at ten than the fifteen of a moment ago. He should have been frantically shouting for the cleric before now I think.

With your swing last round he fell to the ground, worn by want of endurance, bruises, loss of blood, lack of will, and/or being devoid of luck - who can say which combination in this maelstrom of flickering blades - and lies unconscious.

And now, with your last swing, he dies. Who can say in the aftermath if it was a cut, a stab, or a pommel strike. It matters little to what was once Heliax the mighty.

Very good narration.

Now, connect any of that to the actual mechanics. How do you know your blade slipped past and didn't bang off his knee?

You even flat out admit that you don't actually know - "the lens is cloudy, who can say?"

All very pretty, but, completely divorced from what the game is telling you. IOW, 100% your own fabrication to justify things after the fact but not supported in any way by the actual mechanics.

 

[Hussar]

Lack of precision is not nothing. A full day weather forecast instead of an hourly one is still more information than no weather forecast

But a weather cast that is completely incapable of actually forcasting the weather is not a weather forecast.

 

[Hussar]

So you don't have your characters think or act differently when at 120 hp vs. 60 hp vs. 10 hp? (Not 120 vs 110, or 60 vs. 58, or 10 vs. 9, but 120 vs. 60 vs. 10).

I find it kind of strange that one wouldn't.

And I find it odd that just because the game doesn't give specifics about why, that one couldn't have a generic "wow, I'm pretty beat up" without specifying.

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Do ability scores have any meaning in the fictional universe to the characters? If so, what?

Let me spin it around.

I declare that the 5 HP of damage I took missed me but caused me some concern. Prove me wrong. After all, if the system has meaning in universe, then you should easily be able to tell me that I'm wrong.

But, you can't. Heck, I declare that I lose 5 HP because I stepped back and turned my ankle. You still can't prove me wrong.

Heck, I declare that glint of your sword reflected sunlight in my eyes, causing my 5 HP of damage.

Nothing I'm saying here can be gainsayed by the mechanics of the game.

 

[Cadence]

Presumably, a skill check was involved? If the check was successful, then the result in the fiction is that the lock opens.

It feels like this is a model for answering your above question about combat. Presumably a die roll to hit was made, wasn't it? If the roll failed then no damage was taken because not enough stress/luck-draining/anything was done to the target.

How or details are item, but was have a clear and required fictional outcome from the mechanic. It's only if another mechanic intervenes that something else happens it if the check wasn't called without secret inputs.

How would the player know about any secret inputs? What in game lets them know if they actually caused it to open, anymore than the sword swinger knowing if they actually damaged who they were swinging at?

Yes, unless there's some other discoverable reason it would not. What it does in the fiction is unclear -- there is no required fictional change here. There is a mechanical one.

There is no required fictional change I guess, but why would anyone not have it be "the fighter feels better". It feels bizarre to have to specify in every spell that such a thing happens when it seems like just about anyone would assume it occurred. (Of course, this is the game where seeing invisible things like they weren't invisible doesn't help you actually hit them like they weren't invisible...)

If so, then there's some mechanic in play that has a required fictional outcome. Otherwise, fireball inflict hitpoint damage to the ogres, but there's no required fiction for the hp loss., only a mechanical one.

So how do you narrate a fireball spell? Are there any visual or audial components that affect the world in a meaningful way (assuming there are no uncarried flammables around)?

 

[Guest 7034872]

Very good narration.

Now, connect any of that to the actual mechanics. How do you know your blade slipped past and didn't bang off his knee?

You even flat out admit that you don't actually know - "the lens is cloudy, who can say?"

All very pretty, but, completely divorced from what the game is telling you. IOW, 100% your own fabrication to justify things after the fact but not supported in any way by the actual mechanics.

He'll correct me, but I think Cadence's point is that half of the game is narration. The narration and the mechanics only rarely really line up neatly, but suspension of disbelief requires a lot more good narration than it ever does clever mechanics.

I think it's also the case that a DM inventing a good narration to wrap around a bunch of mechanics ex post facto is.....just good DMing. The two have never fit together all that neatly, which is why scrutinizing their details is foolish. If you're going to preserve the illusion, you won't do it by poking at the fabric's every frayed thread, but you do need some kind of narration woven into it to explain the outcomes. That's D&D.