D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[overgeeked]

That's a lot of throwing shade on something a person just said they were proud of. Is that really necessary?

It wouldn’t be the internet unless people randomly crapped on other people for no reason. Would be nice if there was a bit less of it though.

 

[Lanefan]

I’m going to disagree here. Bespoke mechanics by their nature are more specific. They do what they do very well but don’t extrapolate very well. And of course as the system expands, bespoke mechanics become harder and harder to get to work with other mechanics.

Thus initiative.

But then you have things like thieves skills which use percentiles. But finding secret doors uses d6. So which system should I use to find a secret bottom in a chest? What if that false bottom is part of a trap?

Secret doors on a d6 is only for an Elf.

Can an elf find the false bottom of a chest that’s the trigger for a trap? What die roll do I use?

If I allowed such, it'd be a d6. But I don't, in part to keep that realm in the Thieves' niche.

Okay maybe that’s a bad example because you could treat them as separate - the trap and the false bottom. But the point is, the more bespoke mechanics you have the greater the complexity of the system.

Yes. I don't see this as a problem until-unless it starts bogging play down, and given that in our system most of this is DM-side anyway it's on me to keep things moving.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes. I am absolutely suggesting that.

I think. Sorry reading that a few times, it’s not the easiest to parse what you are saying.

But no. I do not think that dms making rulings in any way leads to nerfing anything. Nor is it needed.

Parents will frequently complain to each other that one of them is always the good guy letting a kid have ice cream for dinner & such forcing the other to be the bad guy who needs to make sure the kid eats properly & does things like brush their teeth or whatever. Modern d&d starts the players with the benefits of ice cream at every meal & the expectation that the GM will provide more at some point rather than providing room in the system for the GM to be the good guy providing that ice cream.

But then you have repeatedly stated that you play with laser focused power gamers, so maybe the issue is just more pronounced for you than for me.

the bar has been set so low for hyperoptimized powergamer levels of charop that I'm not sure it's even possible to call someone a "laser focused powergamer" now. Gone are the days where the gm could say "bob you are going on level six and pulling from nine splatbooks already, lets dial this back a bit", now that kind of power can be had with "well I took GWM & GWF with variant human plus the most damaging weapon I could choose at level 1 & instead of actor decided to take sentinel at 4".

 

[Thomas Shey]

But rolling d20 sometimes and d% sometimes, and resolving stealth sometimes by reference to consequence (eg the ranger's surprise bonus) and sometimes by reference to task (eg the thief's ability to move silently) doesn't look like powerful bespoke mechanics delivering a compelling play experience. It looks like careless design almost guaranteed to create headaches in play.

Yup. I think there's a place for subsystems that do specific things to enhance what the game is trying to do. I don't, however, see anything about that which requires a whole new mechanical approach that shows little or no relationship to how other mechanics in the game are handled. Does rolling a D6 and looking for a 1 or 2 do anything rolling a D20 and looking for a 14 or better wouldn't?

 

[Thomas Shey]

the bar has been set so low for hyperoptimized powergamer levels of charop that I'm not sure it's even possible to call someone a "laser focused powergamer" now.

And you wonder why people say you're being hyperbolic.

 

[tetrasodium]

And you wonder why people say you're being hyperbolic.

Ok... How do you define "laser focused power gamer"? I went on to explain the low bar referenced in the partial quote & even gave an example.

 

[Hussar]

Secret doors on a d6 is only for an Elf.

If I allowed such, it'd be a d6. But I don't, in part to keep that realm in the Thieves' niche.

Yes. I don't see this as a problem until-unless it starts bogging play down, and given that in our system most of this is DM-side anyway it's on me to keep things moving.

I thought everyone had a 1 in 6 chance of finding doors when actively searching but elves got it for just walking past and then higher chances when actively searching.

Is that a rule I’ve completely made up or maybe from basic/expert?

 

[Hussar]

. Modern d&d starts the players with the benefits of ice cream at every meal & the expectation that the GM will provide more at some point rather than providing room in the system for the GM to be the good guy providing that ice cream.

See your experience with 5e I no way resembles mine so we really can’t discuss this. There’s just no point because while we are both speaking English, we certainly aren’t speaking the same language.

 

[Hussar]

Ok... How do you define "laser focused power gamer"? I went on to explain the low bar referenced in the partial quote & even gave an example.

One more stab.

In nearly 10 years now of 5e, I’ve seen gwf twice and sentinel once. Sharpshooter a couple of times but that’s about it.

And that’s ignoring the majority of tables that don’t use feats.

Now do you see why I’m saying your experience should not be extrapolated?

 

[pemerton]

I thought everyone had a 1 in 6 chance of finding doors when actively searching but elves got it for just walking past and then higher chances when actively searching.

Is that a rule I’ve completely made up or maybe from basic/expert?

The 1 in 6 for just walking past is not for secret doors but concealed doors (a different category of hidden door).

But yes, the default chance when searching, for non-elves, is 1 in 6. (DMG p 97, intuitively located after the map and key of the sample dungeon but before the scripted example of play in that dungeon, under the heading "The first dungeon adventure".)