D&D General The Problem with Talking About D&D

[tetrasodium]

I take umbrage with running being easy. Every time I see it attempted, without a very specific ability such as a caster dropping a spell that can slow down pursuit, the enemies just catch you. While there are chase rules in the DMG, the line between "when combat ends" and when it's a chase now, is unclear.

Every instance I've seen of players attempting to run has had to deal with the combat rules. If you just turn and move away, you provoke opportunity attacks. If you withdraw, the enemy just moves up and attacks you again. It's like the old adage, you don't have outrun the enemy, just the slowest party member, but that leaves you without party members.

Plus, there are monsters who are faster than your party members. Quite a few of them. In another thread, I postulated the issue of a monster like the werewolf. If you encounter one at low levels without silver or magic weapons, people said "oh you just run away and come back prepared". Except, in wolf form, the creature has a speed of 40. Who is running away again? The Barbarian or the Monk?

Now if your caster can drop something that slows enemies down, or there's some stunt you can pull to do so, that's one thing, but for a guy stuck in melee with a monster, he's going nowhere.

One player falling back 30ft while everyone else continues fighting is different from the group deciding "this looks bad & I think this is a fight we are going to lose, lets run away before this gets worse" . When the group chooses to run as a group they pull out all the stops going for broke to get somewhere safe so they can rest up far away, but just one player choosing to run to the other side of the room or something while the rest of the group continues to engage in a fight they expect to win is just fingers crossed tactical positioning. In some past editions characters were sticky because moving more than 5 feet/1 square provoked an opportunity attack & in some cases it provoked one for each 5 foot/square moved through up to dex mod number of them per round on top of monsters with less HP so that tactical positioning was meaningful but it certainly wasn't running away then & definitely isn't in 5e.

Resting up & recovering in 5e is so trivial that of course a group will have trouble running away when they try to tread the line between falling back to a closet somewhere to rest up when half the party is still doing their best imitation of a wackamole arcade game that's already been lost but is forcing the GM to run the trainwreck down to the last meeple rather than conceding to flee simply because they never committed to either. When the group plans & proactively commits to a strategy like "lets all run & hopefully it will chase Alice/Bob when we scatter because they can use $ability to probably get away" early the GM tends to be quite willing to help your strategy work for reasons colleville does a great job of explaining "Why?"

Spoiler: here

In the past there were crunchy bit of combat that combined with things like resource attrition & a higher chance of lethality pushing players to collaborate & plan during combat. That collaboration & planning made sure they could all be aiming for the same plan things like when to bravely run away instead of conflicting plans, but that's pretty much gone by the roadside in 5e in favor of just soloing near each other with no concern for life limb or resources. Players rarely ever consider actually running before the fight is already settled & the corpses are just waiting to fall. During the discussion about what went wrong & what could have been done players can talk about making sure that the group considers working together & thinking about those resource expenditure things more will help avoid a repeat by running earlier. By making it clear that the group's goal is to run like hell before the result is cemented it makes "the line between "when combat ends" and when it's a chase" crystal clear from orbit even to the most distracted GM. If the line is ever still unclear when a chase starts players haven't shifted from tactical repositioning to a run away commitment & can bring that up in the discussion among players after the dust settles.

Then there's the example. A werewolf is cr3 ac11 58 hp & makes two anemic attacks (1d8+2 & 2d4+2). Cantrips alone can handle a werewolf without much effort by a group unless the group is so low that things like a few zombies alone are a meaningful encounter. No group with more than a couple levels should have much trouble dealing with a werewolf unless the encounter is edging into LMoP's goblin ambush from stealth on 1st(?) level PCs type territory. CoS starts out hunting them with some start options but I can't see how anyone can even be injured by

Spoiler: this

Strahd is using the werewolves to lure adventurers to his domain. Characters can follow the werewolves' tracks into the Misty Forest. After hours of fruitless searching, the characters are engulfed by thick fog:

The woods darken as the trees begin to close ranks, their needle-covered arms interlocking to blot out the sun. The shroud of mist that covers the ground turns into creeping walls of gray fog that silently envelop you until you can't see more than a few feet in any direction. Soon, even the werewolf tracks disappear.

No matter which direction they go, the characters come to a lonely dirt road that cuts through the woods, leading to area A (see chapter 2). As an alternative, you can have them enter Barovia near Krezk (see chapter 8).

It doesn't look like there is a werewolf till several chapters in. By that time a werewolf is pretty much a couple cantrips & a fireball or something. Even if a werewolf got the drop on players & ambushed them at close range it shouldn't be enough of an issue for the party to really even notice that the players still using starter weapons are doing no damage. A handful of zombies are more dangerous than a werewolf.

 

[James Gasik]

I used the werewolf as an example because it came up in another thread, where we were discussing creature vulnerabilities and weaknesses. As I recall, someone said they wanted werewolves to be immune to non-silver weapons, which is when I pointed out that if you engage the werewolf unprepared, you are in trouble.

They said "oh well, you just run away" to which I replied "the werewolf can catch you."

Now could I use a better creature? Sure. It doesn't really matter though, if your group is deciding to cut and run, they are probably in bad shape. This is a player issue; many players don't have the experience to know when they should run at first glance. In fact, I'd go a step further and claim that many players think that any encounter they face is one they can win.

If you play a grittier game where running is common, everyone is savvy about sizing up their opposition, and you have set strategies to disengage from combat, you might not see the issue.

But everyone acts on their own initiative, so some people will run away, leaving a party member behind to get surrounded by monsters, unless the DM decides to allow combat to end.

I've only seen one group try to run. We were playing an AL mod called "One Thousand Tiny Cuts" or something like that. It was a tie-in for Tales From the Yawning Portal, specifically the Forge of Fury. The players found a cave of kobolds, and if they survive, they find a hidden entrance to the adventure (as there are several paths you can take).

The whole time, the group had been hounded by kobolds with blowguns who had narrow tunnels in the walls with hard to see archer slits, basically. The group had been fighting some other kobolds in a tunnel, and just as they started cleaning up, they started getting peppered by darts.

They decided to advance further into the cave, where they rounded the corner to find the leader of the Kobolds, a Sorcerer, and his cadre of Urds with rocks (really painful rocks, to be precise) that they would drop on you from above, and a big Kobold with a shield.

Because they were still in initiative, half the group was in line of sight to the Sorcerer, while the other half was not. This was probably a good thing, as these tier one characters found, to their horror, that the Kobold was the equivalent of a 6th level Draconic Sorcerer, and he had two third level spells. Haste and Fireball.

He opened with the fireball, and that's when the party decided it was a good idea to retreat. Given that the party still had to deal with the little jerk snipers, the DM left it in initiative.

They of course couldn't escape hasted kobolds, nor were they able to get out of range of the second fireball. Amazingly, the party won, but the losses were heavy.

You might say this was an outlier, but this is the kind of thing I have seen happen a lot, even if you wanted to run, there's not much ability for the entire party to get away without taking even more damage, at which point, you might be better off fighting til the end.

 

[James Gasik]

And taking a closer look at the Chase rules, there are several fail points to consider. First, how far apart the enemies and the players are. If you have a player who has a 25' movement speed, someone with a 30 or more will catch you, if you both make the Dash action each turn. The chase can't end until the enemies stop pursuing, or the players manage to get out of the line of sight of the lead pursuer.

Everyone can only take the Dash action 3+Con modifier rounds during a chase, and there is a DC 10 Con check to avoid taking levels of fatigue (which are very hard to get rid of). And even if you do get out of line of sight, there is a contested Stealth check, and anyone wearing heavy armor has disadvantage.

Plus if you blunder into other enemies, they are not obligated to chase you, though they can, and they can certainly attack you. I don't know, I think the "just run" strategy is sketchy in it's own right.

EDIT: also, you remain in initiative order, so a character being left behind and then surrounded by enemies they can't get away from is still totally a thing.

 

[DND_Reborn]

They decided to advance further into the cave

This is their problem -- overconfidence.

As you say (and I agree in general) players go into just about any encounter expecting to win. That is a the major flaw in D&D. Only when they feel or know the boss-fight is coming do they typically begin to prep and play it cautious.

Sadly, this means all the rest of the time they could easily be walking into a situation where running is the best idea but they can't because they were unprepared and are forced to duke it out.

Amazingly, the party won, but the losses were heavy.

Which is the next part of the problem.

Now, the behavior is reinforced because once again the party was "forced" to fight because they couldn't escape and yet them managed to win the day again.

Worst yet, in such cases IME many DMs (at this point) begin to fudge (see other threads). They know the rules don't support fleeing, which might even be what was intended, but when they try to play it out it fails (for any number of reasons) and so the fight is forced upon the group and the DM might be inclined to let fortune fall the players way.

Another big issue IME is players often neglect to fight defensively when forced into such situations. It is like they refuse to take the Dodge action until their HP are so low they feel they have no choice. Finding defensive positions in the middle of a fight is also hardly even done by other groups.

Anyway, for myself, when I suggest running away is an option it is because I expect (and explain to new players) that they will assess situations and not walk into them blindly--expecting to win. In the above example, I don't know how they players advanced further into the cave, but every group I play with has someone scouting in some fashion so they have an idea of what they are getting into.

Finally, sometimes you want to run but it just isn't an option. Encounters like those are fine, but IME a well-played group usually does have the option to "retreat" if not actually "run". But, that is because when I detect overconfidence rearing its ugly head, I make sure my group reins it in quickly--or pay the price if they don't and (hopefully) lesson learned.

 

[Oofta]

And taking a closer look at the Chase rules, there are several fail points to consider. First, how far apart the enemies and the players are. If you have a player who has a 25' movement speed, someone with a 30 or more will catch you, if you both make the Dash action each turn. The chase can't end until the enemies stop pursuing, or the players manage to get out of the line of sight of the lead pursuer.

Everyone can only take the Dash action 3+Con modifier rounds during a chase, and there is a DC 10 Con check to avoid taking levels of fatigue (which are very hard to get rid of). And even if you do get out of line of sight, there is a contested Stealth check, and anyone wearing heavy armor has disadvantage.

Plus if you blunder into other enemies, they are not obligated to chase you, though they can, and they can certainly attack you. I don't know, I think the "just run" strategy is sketchy in it's own right.

EDIT: also, you remain in initiative order, so a character being left behind and then surrounded by enemies they can't get away from is still totally a thing.

This is where as a DM I give the players a bit of an edge if they can do things like drop ball bearings or caltrops, perhaps cast any spell that would hinder movement. Maybe someone can cast an illusion or the monk can draw the pursuers off to the side and then us step of the wind to run away as a distraction. Barring that, depends on if there is an option of creating a small cave-in, block a door and so on. It doesn't have to slow down the enemy that much, just enough to let the party get ahead.

There is no simple answer though. In general if I think it's likely that the PCs may (or should) run away I'll try to give them an obvious escape route or three. I don't think there is an obvious answer though that will always work.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I used the werewolf as an example because it came up in another thread, where we were discussing creature vulnerabilities and weaknesses. As I recall, someone said they wanted werewolves to be immune to non-silver weapons, which is when I pointed out that if you engage the werewolf unprepared, you are in trouble.

They said "oh well, you just run away" to which I replied "the werewolf can catch you."

Now could I use a better creature? Sure. It doesn't really matter though, if your group is deciding to cut and run, they are probably in bad shape. This is a player issue; many players don't have the experience to know when they should run at first glance. In fact, I'd go a step further and claim that many players think that any encounter they face is one they can win.

If you play a grittier game where running is common, everyone is savvy about sizing up their opposition, and you have set strategies to disengage from combat, you might not see the issue.

But everyone acts on their own initiative, so some people will run away, leaving a party member behind to get surrounded by monsters, unless the DM decides to allow combat to end.

I've only seen one group try to run. We were playing an AL mod called "One Thousand Tiny Cuts" or something like that. It was a tie-in for Tales From the Yawning Portal, specifically the Forge of Fury. The players found a cave of kobolds, and if they survive, they find a hidden entrance to the adventure (as there are several paths you can take).

The whole time, the group had been hounded by kobolds with blowguns who had narrow tunnels in the walls with hard to see archer slits, basically. The group had been fighting some other kobolds in a tunnel, and just as they started cleaning up, they started getting peppered by darts.

They decided to advance further into the cave, where they rounded the corner to find the leader of the Kobolds, a Sorcerer, and his cadre of Urds with rocks (really painful rocks, to be precise) that they would drop on you from above, and a big Kobold with a shield.

Because they were still in initiative, half the group was in line of sight to the Sorcerer, while the other half was not. This was probably a good thing, as these tier one characters found, to their horror, that the Kobold was the equivalent of a 6th level Draconic Sorcerer, and he had two third level spells. Haste and Fireball.

He opened with the fireball, and that's when the party decided it was a good idea to retreat. Given that the party still had to deal with the little jerk snipers, the DM left it in initiative.

They of course couldn't escape hasted kobolds, nor were they able to get out of range of the second fireball. Amazingly, the party won, but the losses were heavy.

You might say this was an outlier, but this is the kind of thing I have seen happen a lot, even if you wanted to run, there's not much ability for the entire party to get away without taking even more damage, at which point, you might be better off fighting til the end.

That was the first time I've ever read the phrase "amazingly the party won" in reference to 5e. Neat.

 

[tetrasodium]

And taking a closer look at the Chase rules, there are several fail points to consider. First, how far apart the enemies and the players are. If you have a player who has a 25' movement speed, someone with a 30 or more will catch you, if you both make the Dash action each turn. The chase can't end until the enemies stop pursuing, or the players manage to get out of the line of sight of the lead pursuer.

Everyone can only take the Dash action 3+Con modifier rounds during a chase, and there is a DC 10 Con check to avoid taking levels of fatigue (which are very hard to get rid of). And even if you do get out of line of sight, there is a contested Stealth check, and anyone wearing heavy armor has disadvantage.

Plus if you blunder into other enemies, they are not obligated to chase you, though they can, and they can certainly attack you. I don't know, I think the "just run" strategy is sketchy in it's own right.

EDIT: also, you remain in initiative order, so a character being left behind and then surrounded by enemies they can't get away from is still totally a thing.

I'm not seeing anywhere in those two posts where you explain what about " groups that aren't good?" or any indication that the statement "What if they need to run?... running has pretty much always been easy" is false. Something can be easy and still have a chance of failure. Relying on an assumption that monsters will never allow players to escape to ignore that the chase rules you brought up are not built for run away & open with "Strict application of the movement rules can turn a potentially exciting chase into a dull, predictable affair.
Faster creatures always catch up to slower ones, while creatures with the same speed never close the distance between each other. This set of rules can make chases more exciting by introducing random elements. ". They are built to "make chases exciting". Hunting down fleeing characters to the last man when they are dedicated to fleeing is not in any way "exciting".

I used the werewolf as an example because it came up in another thread, where we were discussing creature vulnerabilities and weaknesses. As I recall, someone said they wanted werewolves to be immune to non-silver weapons, which is when I pointed out that if you engage the werewolf unprepared, you are in trouble.

They said "oh well, you just run away" to which I replied "the werewolf can catch you."

Now could I use a better creature? Sure. It doesn't really matter though, if your group is deciding to cut and run, they are probably in bad shape. This is a player issue; many players don't have the experience to know when they should run at first glance. In fact, I'd go a step further and claim that many players think that any encounter they face is one they can win.

If you play a grittier game where running is common, everyone is savvy about sizing up their opposition, and you have set strategies to disengage from combat, you might not see the issue.

But everyone acts on their own initiative, so some people will run away, leaving a party member behind to get surrounded by monsters, unless the DM decides to allow combat to end.

I've only seen one group try to run. We were playing an AL mod called "One Thousand Tiny Cuts" or something like that. It was a tie-in for Tales From the Yawning Portal, specifically the Forge of Fury. The players found a cave of kobolds, and if they survive, they find a hidden entrance to the adventure (as there are several paths you can take).

The whole time, the group had been hounded by kobolds with blowguns who had narrow tunnels in the walls with hard to see archer slits, basically. The group had been fighting some other kobolds in a tunnel, and just as they started cleaning up, they started getting peppered by darts.

They decided to advance further into the cave, where they rounded the corner to find the leader of the Kobolds, a Sorcerer, and his cadre of Urds with rocks (really painful rocks, to be precise) that they would drop on you from above, and a big Kobold with a shield.

Because they were still in initiative, half the group was in line of sight to the Sorcerer, while the other half was not. This was probably a good thing, as these tier one characters found, to their horror, that the Kobold was the equivalent of a 6th level Draconic Sorcerer, and he had two third level spells. Haste and Fireball.

He opened with the fireball, and that's when the party decided it was a good idea to retreat. Given that the party still had to deal with the little jerk snipers, the DM left it in initiative.

They of course couldn't escape hasted kobolds, nor were they able to get out of range of the second fireball. Amazingly, the party won, but the losses were heavy.

You might say this was an outlier, but this is the kind of thing I have seen happen a lot, even if you wanted to run, there's not much ability for the entire party to get away without taking even more damage, at which point, you might be better off fighting til the end.

We were talking about a werewolf not a kobold sorcerer plus a bunch of dart shooting kobolds. Why does "the DM [refuse] to allow combat to end". Are the players carrying something like the idol of the wolf god stolen from it's holy place & trying to escape without leaving behind the thing causing a werewolf to keep chasing them so they can destroy it? Did the players wait till everyone was bouncing up & down with healing word to flee because it allowed them to kill the other N werewolves in a pack with this single enraged werewolf till there was no more healing words to be had?

 

[James Gasik]

Well Tetrasodium, I don't know what to say. All I have is what I've seen to go on, and that's that running just never seems to work out. Perhaps if I saw an example in action it would be different, but it really seems to be a case of somehow being able to grok the instant the combat starts that it's too much for you, because once you're engaged in combat, if the enemies want to chase you down and kill you, it looks like you're stuck for losing at least one party member unless, again, you have a specific trick prepared to allow for it.

You remain in initiative, and the primary factor remains movement speeds. As to why someone would chase you, are you kidding? If they are running, you have the superior force, and these adventurers are busting into your territory. If you let them go, they just come back later. I guess a case could be made for luring enemies into an ambush by having them run after you? I don't know.

Oofta, here's the thing. I know I don't try to scout ahead because the game doesn't really support it well. Let me explain- obviously, I can't scout ahead with a light source. So I have to rely on darkvision, if I happen to possess it, which imposes disadvantage on my perception, which isn't ideal in case I bump into something that is also hiding.

Now presumably, intelligent humanoids use light because their own darkvision has this nifty penalty attached, but many monsters lack hands. Even if my Stealth skills can easily bypass the passive Perception of most creatures, too many times have I seen the scout, who again, can probably see at best 60 ft. (superior darkvision being fairly rare) ahead, blunders into their own solo encounter.

It happened to me one time, and I don't plan on ever repeating the experience. Now a Druid maybe, if available seems like a good choice, as would a familiar if you don't mind having to pay for a new one (on another forum, I saw a very lengthy discussion on what DM's should always target familiars, and it's not an unheard of practice).

 

[Vaalingrade]

What is with some DMs and PCs fleeing?

I don't see what is fun about taking time out of your week not engaging in the game?

 

[overgeeked]

Why would any of it be easy? Adventuring is dangerous business. You get into a fight you cannot win and it’s difficult to run away without problems? Good. It’s supposed to be dangerous. In historical battles (pre-industrial warfare) most of the casualties were from one side breaking and fleeing. The PCs shouldn’t have a perfect, easy, reliable, and safe “we just get away” button. There are spells for that, if they have them. If they don’t they get to take their chances. Running away is hard? Good. It’s supposed to be. But players seem to learn the wrong lesson from that (on top of the heaps of bad lessons 5E already teaches), players think that means they should never run…instead they should learn to be more careful about the fights they get into. And no, they don’t always have perfect, easy, reliable, and safe ways to scout ahead and/or otherwise gather intel. Again, good. Adventuring is dangerous.