D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[Lanefan]

Actually, it's not surprise at all. The greatsword guy was aware of dagger guy, and alert to a possible threat.

If greatsword guy was his best friend, or husband and they were having a pleasant chat, and the attack occured, we could talk (but even then, there would be a preliminary insight check involved)


He doesnt need to know what the dagger guy intends to do on his first turn of the first round.

He only needs to know that there is a potential threat in front of him.

Unless greatsword guy is hidden when combat starts (and combat starts when he declares his hostile act, which then triggers initiative, with the declared action - or any other action for that matter - happening in turn order) or otherwise observed by dagger guy, but there is literally no way dagger guy could anticipate a possible attack, then it's initiative as normal.

Scenario:

The PCs have an audience with the King. Halfway through the discussions, the pompous King makes an offhand remark about 'unwashed Barbarians'. The (PC) Barbarian takes insult:

King (DM, nonchalantly sipping his wine): I wish for you to track down some Bandits for the Crown. I will pay you each 500gp for this task should you end this menace to the realm. These scum are likely filthy outlanders, Barbarians of the foulest sort...
Grog Facesmasher (Player, to the horror of the other PCs at the table): DM, on hearing that remark, I suddenly flip the table, enter Rage, draw my Axe and attack the King!

In this example, there is no surprise. The King has literally zero reason to trust the PCs, and every reason not to. It's initiative as normal. It goes like this:

Why would there not be surprise? The table flip, at least, has the potential to catch all sorts of people off guard; and could lead to some of the unwary being stuck under the table for a round or two while they extricate themselves.

Here, I'd say the table flip automatically goes first as the action that triggers whatever follows, but the Barb then has to roll initiative normally to get his axe out and attack someone.

DM (pauses to think a second): Err OK Grog. With a howl of anger, you all see Grog reach for his Axe, with bloodlust in his eyes, fixated on the King! The King looks on aghast, ready to call for his guards, who start advancing towards the Party, hands on weapons! Roll initiative.

So where in that does the table flip take place? To me that's the key action in the whole sequence, as it both causes a big disruption and triggers the combat that follows.

In our example assume:

Should another PC (say the Wizard) go first:

Quadratic Simulacrumwisher (PC Wizard, initiative count 20, first to act in turn 1): DM, as I see Grog go for his weapon I quickly cast sleep on Grog, seeking to knock hm out and diffuse the situation.

Should the King go first:

DM (as the King): The King, fearful of your rage, leaps from his table and races off towards a door in the back of the room, screaming out "Guards, protect me!!'' (takes the dodge action, and moves 30' away)

That's how it works mate. There are no combat actions 'outside of combat' and there is no surprise when a DM declares combat sequencing starts (so before any hostile acts have taken place) and at the time the DM declares combat is starting, all sides are aware of the other, and the possibility they may be a potential threat (in the broadest possible way).

You're making a huge assumption, I think, in saying there's no possibility of surprise. Everyone's aware of each others' presence, sure, but not necessarily aware of what each person is thinking and-or doing at all times.

 

[Lanefan]

Agreed there's some very rare case where it may not make sense but for most case it works fine. The whole idea here is especially to avoid PCs and NPCs taking action before initiative giving them free turn.

Why? The whole point is to try and gain exactly that advantage, by finding realistic ways of getting the drop on your opponents. Flip side: the NPCs are trying to do the same to you.

There's no surprise round or free turn, everyone gets a turn in the 1st round, even surprised creatures.

Yeah, those dumb 5e surprise rules again...

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, those dumb 5e surprise rules again...

@Plaguescarred was a bit misleading when he said surprised characters get a turn. They technically do, but really they don't. They get an initiative number. Once that number passes, they can make a reaction as they've missed their first turn and are no longer surprised. They get no movement or actions, though.

 

[Lanefan]

I fully understand the logic of this, and if I'm imagining a scene in a book or a movie then I completely agree with you.

However, in talking about a game I care for the playability of the game as much (or more so) than the realism. And, as I and others have explained, if you start allowing narration to supersede rules, there's no clear boundary of where it ends.

Where for me it's realism first, game second when they're in conflict; particularly when it comes to time and timing, which most of this discussion is about.

And, in terms of resolving the disconnect between the rules and the narration, one simply has to allow that sometimes things unfold in unpredictable ways.

Player: "I pull the trigger on my crossbow."
DM: "Ok, everybody roll initiative."
Player: "Wait! All I did was move my finger a centimeter! I should get that attack for free."
DM: "Well, that's what you wanted to do. Let's see what actually unfolds..."
(everybody rolls, player with crossbow rolls poorly)
DM: "Ok, what just happened?"
Player: "Arrrggghh! My crossbow jammed!" Or, "In my excitement, I forgot to put a bolt in place."*

Or the player decides that having now stirred everyone in the room into a tizzy, he doesn't pull the trigger at all...which IMO is just as bad.

The broader question here is whether one wants the system to reward those who are proactive or those who are reactive. I'd rather reward those who are proactive, if possible.

 

[Flamestrike]

Why would there not be surprise? The table flip, at least, has the potential to catch all sorts of people off guard; and could lead to some of the unwary being stuck under the table for a round or two while they extricate themselves.

There is no surprise because when combat starts all sides are aware of each other and of the potential for violence.

if I was talking to some random NPC and you declared I was 'surprised' when they attacked me id likely quit then and there.

 

[Flamestrike]

No, I get it. The thrower initiates combat. Max suggested that if the greatsword guy was drinking a potion, he could possibly beat the thrower’s initiative. But if he was charging into melee, he could not.

He could indeed beat his initiative and charge in and attack.

The actions happen more or less simultaneously. We just resolve rhe charge first.

 

[Blue]

To avoid all this, I roll initiative at the end of the previous encounter in order to smoothly transition into combat rounds when things get dangerous.

This seems basically like "I roll initiaitve" - when you roll for it doesn't seem to matter, or am I missing something? Unless the players expected to guide their characters actions based on foreknowledge of the order they are going to go in.

 

[Mort]

This seems basically like "I roll initiaitve" - when you roll for it doesn't seem to matter, or am I missing something? Unless the players expected to guide their characters actions based on foreknowledge of the order they are going to go in.

Not @robus but I suspect this means he has everyone roll their initiative rolls for the NEXT combat at the end of the current combat. So when the next combat starts, initiative is set but players don't roll it - it just seamlessly transitions to the combat with the order set.

I can see it, though I don't think that would be a fit for me or my group (then again, haven't tried it - maybe it would be great).

 

[Bill Zebub]

You're making a huge assumption, I think, in saying there's no possibility of surprise. Everyone's aware of each others' presence, sure, but not necessarily aware of what each person is thinking and-or doing at all times.

If you mean surprise in the formal sense, then it should require opposed rolls (and as I already pointed out, your allies might also be surprised.)

But if you just mean surprised in the sense that the declaring character gets first attack, then there IS a possibility of surprise: if they win initiative, they succeeded. It’s really that simple.

 

[Bill Zebub]

The broader question here is whether one wants the system to reward those who are proactive or those who are reactive. I'd rather reward those who are proactive, if possible.

So if instead of “I attack the orc” I say, “I avoid the orc’s shield and stab him in the face where he has no armor”, are you going to let me roll against AC 10? Am I being proactive, or just trying to narrate my way around rules?