D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[Bill Zebub]

Where for me it's realism first, game second

That makes 5e an interesting choice.

 

[Irlo]

He could indeed beat his initiative and charge in and attack.

The actions happen more or less simultaneously. We just resolve rhe charge first.

Well, yes. I know. I agree. We agree. Our opinions concur. You and I, we're on the same page.

I think you're missing that I was responding to another poster who would rule that the fighter would NOT be allowed to roll initiative if he were charging into melee; and additionally suggested that if the fighter WOULD be allowed to roll initiative if were to drink a potion. That suggestion is what causes weirdness requiring pre-initiative declarations of actions.

You're replying to my comments without the context of what I was commenting on, as if I was proposing what I was in fact objecting to.

So, in summary, yes. I agree. With you.

 

[Maxperson]

So if instead of “I attack the orc” I say, “I avoid the orc’s shield and stab him in the face where he has no armor”, are you going to let me roll against AC 10? Am I being proactive, or just trying to narrate my way around rules?

Dunno, but a called shot to the head would incur some hefty minuses, including disadvantage for sure. If you hit, though...

 

[Maxperson]

That makes 5e an interesting choice.

He doesn't play 5e that I know of. Still, I do and realism is a major part of that. It's not hard to add a good amount of realism to the game without much disruption.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Dunno, but a called shot to the head would incur some hefty minuses, including disadvantage for sure. If you hit, though...

Fair enough, but then it’s a risk:reward situation.

Where’s the risk in yelling “I attack” in order to avoid rolling initiative?

 

[Maxperson]

Well, yes. I know. I agree. We agree. Our opinions concur. You and I, we're on the same page.

I think you're missing that I was responding to another poster who would rule that the fighter would NOT be allowed to roll initiative if he were charging into melee; and additionally suggested that if the fighter WOULD be allowed to roll initiative if were to drink a potion. That suggestion is what causes weirdness requiring pre-initiative declarations of actions.

I think you're talking about me and I said neither of those things. I said the fighter WOULD roll initiative, but would lose to the dagger thrower, and potentially others depending on rolls. I also said that if a potion were already in hand it could be fast enough. Otherwise not.

 

[Maxperson]

Where’s the risk in yelling “I attack” in order to avoid rolling initiative?

"I attack" isn't sufficient. There must be extenuating circumstances like I set up with the dagger. If someone just yells "I attack," they are rolling initiative like everyone else.

 

[Irlo]

There has to be. Something has to trigger the initiative roll when you have groups and no combat. Someone has to declare something hostile.

The normal procedure is to roll initiative when groups encounter one another. No declaration required. It's what happens anytime a party stumbles across a zombie in the dungeon.

I think you're talking about me and I said neither of those things. I said the fighter WOULD roll initiative, but would lose to the dagger thrower, and potentially others depending on rolls. I also said that if a potion were already in hand it could be fast enough. Otherwise not.

Then I mis-read your post! You have my apologies.

So how do you adjudicate the order of actions? Everyone rolls for initiative, and those who roll higher than the knife-thrower declare actions, and if you (the DM) assess those declarations and you judge them to be fast enough, they can take their quick actions -- but not their full turns -- before the knife throw is resolved. Can the potion guy finish his turn after the knife-throw? Does he wait until the next round?

 

[Mort]

"I attack" isn't sufficient. There must be extenuating circumstances like I set up with the dagger. If someone just yells "I attack," they are rolling initiative like everyone else.

If someone says "I set up" with a dagger do you make them roll some kind of stealth or slight of hand check to remain unobtrusive?

 

[Maxperson]

The normal procedure is to roll initiative when groups encounter one another. No declaration required.

I disagree. If you read The Order of Combat and Surprise, it's pretty clear that hostilities have to be going on. Surprise is an automatic check, since that's not at all combat dependent and a quiet non-hostile group can surprise a loud non-hostile group. Initiative, however, explicitly says it determines the order of combat and is rolled when combat starts. No hostilities, no combat encounter(just normal encounter). No combat encounter, no initiative.

Then I mis-read your post! You have my apologies.

No worries!