D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[Maxperson]

If someone says "I set up" with a dagger do you make them roll some kind of stealth or slight of hand check to remain unobtrusive?

Most of the time. Some circumstances might warrant a freebie, but if that doesn't occur, the pull of the dagger could be noticed.

 

[Irlo]

I disagree. If you read The Order of Combat and Surprise, it's pretty clear that hostilities have to be going on. Surprise is an automatic check, since that's not at all combat dependent and a quiet non-hostile group can surprise a loud non-hostile group. Initiative, however, explicitly says it determines the order of combat and is rolled when combat starts. No hostilities, no combat encounter(just normal encounter). No combat encounter, no initiative.

Strongly disagree. No surprise there, I'm sure.

 

[Maxperson]

Strongly disagree. No surprise there, I'm sure.

Are you sure? Did we check? I was being pretty stealthy.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Well I'm glad to see we've finally arrived at resolution. That resolution being, of course, that there are two camps with an unbridgeable divide between them.

 

[Lanefan]

There is no surprise because when combat starts all sides are aware of each other and of the potential for violence.

Are they aware of the potential for violence? They're having dinner with the King, for cryin' out loud - in theory, that's a peaceful situation and nobody has any weapons out (except maybe some guards at the door, well removed from anyone).

The Barbarian suddenly flipping the table should automatically catch anyone off guard who didn't or couldn't hear what the King said to him to piss hm off; those who did hear would get a roll to see whether they realize just in time that trouble's a-brewing.

if I was talking to some random NPC and you declared I was 'surprised' when they attacked me id likely quit then and there.

So you wouldn't accept the very realistic concept of being caught off guard by an attack in an otherwise-peaceful situation?

And I wouldn't just "declare" you're surprised - you'd get a roll regardless; but even if you weren't surprised the attacker would still either get automatic first initiative or a big bonus on the roll, depending on the situation.

I don't assume PCs are ready for combat every waking moment, particularly if the situation otherwise appears peaceful. Unless, of course, the PCs are willing to be quickly banned from most points of civilization due to their walking around fully armoured with weapons in hand at all times, and distressing the locals.

 

[Lanefan]

If you mean surprise in the formal sense, then it should require opposed rolls (and as I already pointed out, your allies might also be surprised.)

But if you just mean surprised in the sense that the declaring character gets first attack, then there IS a possibility of surprise: if they win initiative, they succeeded. It’s really that simple.

My point is that in this example there shouldn't be any "if" around the attacker winning initiative; as it's that attack which triggers combat in the first place.

And yes, your allies might be surprised - nothing wrong with that.

 

[Lyxen]

My point is that in this example there shouldn't be any "if" around the attacker winning initiative; as it's that attack which triggers combat in the first place.

And yes, your allies might be surprised - nothing wrong with that.

The thing is that once more (and as usual more the source of disagreement than the ruleset itself) it is hugely circumstances dependent. There is a whole gradation of possibilities from "having a casual dinner with a relaxed king who is basically trusting the people at the table" and "An extremely tense dinner where the possibility of treachery is all but certain and everyone is watching everyone, on full alert".

As there are differences between doing something that might be expected like drawing a weapon, jumping at the king's throat or casting a spell, and doing something totally unexpected (but for me the table flip would not qualify, and would also be circumstance dependent for example if it's a massive table, it would be unlikely to succeed but all the more surprising if it was, etc.).

And my point of view is that 5e sort of caters for all of these. Surprise occurs when some people are not aware of other aggressors. The standard rule is that it usually is because the aggressors have not been detected. In the case above, and if the situation is tense, it's obvious that the (potential) aggressors are in plain sight, so there would be no surprise. But if the situation is very relaxed, someone doing something out of the blue might qualify as an "unnoticed aggressor" as all other people (not in on the secret aggression) are not aware of the possibility of violence.

In all cases, it's not the act itself that starts the initiative, being an act that stats a combat it means that it's only the declaration by the player that he wants his character to commit the act, the act will be one of the actions of combat, and that is the 5e rule, plainly.

However, in the second case, the DM might rule that because the atmosphere was relaxed, aggression was not expected and the declared act is "out of the blue", surprise happens, and that act is indeed the only one happening in the first round as everyone is surprised that there is an aggressor present.

I think this would cater for your case fairly nicely.

The thing is that it should not be abused, once more, by players who think themselves clever there. The NPCs are as clever as they are, they can be as or even more aware (adventurers have a reputation for violence, and some of them might have it in particular), and they can be watching for especially that kind of behaviour. So the player cannot expect automatic surprise just because he thinks it's clever to attack in the middle of a discussion. It's not, in a dangerous world, people will expect that and will not be surprised.

And in any case, turnabout is fair play, if he pulls this, the next assassin will surprise him for exactly the same reasons... I would not do this in the game, not only is it not my preferred method of play, but it's not the principle of 5e as written, but it might be used to point out exactly that to the player, fairness cuts both ways.

As a side note, this is for me one of the great benefits of 5e and its principles of Passive Perception being always on and protecting characters (including NPCs) against that kind of surprise, because in a dangerous world, characters are aware of their surroundings and watching for danger. It avoids players thinking that they are clever and declaring all the time "I watch my surroundings, I'm looking for threats" and whining when they are surprised "but I was watching for threats". It wastes time and energy for basically nothing, and it leaves everyone open to stupid "gotcha" which annoys everyone. The default is that the passives (in particular perception) are on, there is no need for these declarations.

Now, if someone is particularly distracted or is obviously not very aware (like an old king in his drink), it's OK to give disadvantage to PP or even give an automatic failure, but it should not be the rule and it should be fairly visible and justified. After all, the king might be Conan...

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

My point is that in this example there shouldn't be any "if" around the attacker winning initiative; as it's that attack which triggers combat in the first place.

By "that attack", do you allow the attacker their entire 6-second combat turn before anyone else starts reacting?
Or is this only in situations where the attacker already has a weapon out and in position to stab the target?

 

[Flamestrike]

Are they aware of the potential for violence?

Yes! You're always aware of the potential for violence. In the rules you just need to be aware of the other side, not their intentions.

A PC and NPC are talking at 20 feet apart. One declares an attack, and at that stage (the declaration) initiative is determined, and actions then occur in turn order.

There are no attacks 'outside' of initiative, and there is no surprise when both sides are aware of each other when the DM calls for initiative.

 

[Arilyn]

I have found over the years that when a player attacks suddenly, having them roll really bad on initiative feels off, so I usually let them go first during first round only. This applies to villains as well. But it always depends on the situation. It's a judgement call and one of those areas where rules are overridden in favour of common sense.