D&D 5E good breakdown of multiclass vs single class for 5e?

In the case of sorcerer dipping into warlock, you get the capstone many levels early.
No completely true.
Nowhere in the multiclass rules you will find that you can empowere class abilities with pact magic slots.
It is exlicitely stated that you can use pact magic and magic to cast any spell even cross class, not more, not less.
 

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I posted my stats earlier. This is not right. My stats are:

S8
D15+2=17 (18 after second chance feat for Fighter, Sorcerer and Monk)
C12
I8
W15+1=16
Ch13

The character is a Halfling with the stats I posted above. That is not changable.

This is a discussion on when is the right time to multiclass, and whether or not this would be playable from level 1-20. This is not a question on how can I build the most powerful character. If I wanted to build the most powerful character I would just roll up a wizard and be done with it.

On the fighter you put a bunch of stuff in there that does not fit the character. The fighter classes are Eldritch knight, dex build. He would use the same stats above and be a Halfling. The Sorcerer would be a shadow sorcerer, not a dragon and again be a halfling using the stats above. Monk is a Shadow Monk Halfling and at 5th level as I said would do by far the most damage.

Moreover even after all these things that take the build off track, you did not account for strength of the grave, patient defense or shield spell in your math when you said he would be dead in 1 turn against the fighter. It will take 5 turns on average for the fighter you built to take the Monk to 0 hps and when he does he gets a save to go to 1 instead.

The actual chance of landing a hit against the Monk with 16 AC using patient defense and shield is only 16%, the average on the 3rd turn is only patient defense is 30% and after that it is 55%. With both attacks this is only going to average 4DPR the first 2 turns, 6DPR the 3rd turn and 11DPR the 3rd turn and thereafter, throwing precision on there will boost the chance of hitting to 38% in the first 2 turns (before you are out of dice). So here is the average damage per turn with a greatsword and an 16 Strength:
1: 8 (using precsion)
2: 8 (using precision) (16 total)
3: 6 (20 total)
4: 11 (31 total)
5: 12 (43 total, this puts him to 0 for the first time)

So it is going to on average be the 5th turn before you take him to 0 and when you do he will get a strength of the grave save to stay alive (with an average roll of 7 needed due to Charisma proficiency). This is a relavant point - the Charisma saving throw will be important for this character eventually. He only gets it if he takes his first level in Sorcerer.

Finally you left out any comment on darkvision. Only the Sorcerer (if he is a shadow) and the triple class have it. I realize that is difficult to amalgamate into this math, but it does matter quite a bit in play.
I think this whole "I do slighlty more damage" is a flawed view on the game. It is enough that damage output is high enough to have fun in combat if that is important to you. And there is no other reason that prevents you from multiclassing. The argument of missing out high level spells is also flawed, because many character don´t have high level spells.

So. Your character is probably fun to play and works well enough to play even with optimizers.
 


No completely true.
Nowhere in the multiclass rules you will find that you can empowere class abilities with pact magic slots.
It is exlicitely stated that you can use pact magic and magic to cast any spell even cross class, not more, not less.

They all are called spell slots, and flexible casting calls for spell slots. It doesn't specify or further label them.

If we follow your argument to the logical conclusion, a multiclassed sorcerer cannot convert spell slots to sorcery points anymore, nor a multiclassed paladin smite at all. Because the rules for multiclass slots don't mention you can either.


 




Quick breakdown:
  • The level 5 bump as mentioned is huge. Its an extra attack for almost all martial characters, all but doubling their DPR. Third level spells are also huge.
    • The only characters that should consider multiclassing before 5 are rogues, alchemist or artillerist artificers, and at the outside monks. And even there it's questionable (and they don't synergise well).
  • Fighters, rogues, and arguably barbarians get their last good ability at level 11. It might be worth hanging on for the level 12 ASI - but multiclass after that.
  • Spellcasters shouldn't give up more than a single level in their primary class before level 18 - they find themselves an entire spell level behind in terms of spells known and upcast spells are almost never as good as at-level spells.
  • Warlocks are weird - hard to multiclass out of because their casting doesn't stack with anyone else's. But amazing to dip into for non-casters because Eldritch/Agonizing blast scales, they get good subclasses, and invocations are excellent.
 

Quick breakdown:
  • The level 5 bump as mentioned is huge. Its an extra attack for almost all martial characters, all but doubling their DPR. Third level spells are also huge.

When weighing the benefits you need to consider explicitly what you are giving up with the class you are leaving and what you are getting with a new class and there are a lot more things to consider than combat, especially when you bring spells and skill-classes into the mix.

Third level spells can be huge, but new 1st level class abilities can be huge to. Things like unarmored defense, expertise, strength of the grave, martial weapon proficiency and most of all spells ..... These are all pretty big buffs you can get through a 1st-level dip and it is not universally true to say 5th level abilities a single class gets are going to be better than these.

Unless they multiclass into another Martial, cleric or druid it is relatively rare that martials will do double the damage at 5th compared to a 4/1 multiclass. A melee fighter 4 with a 1-level Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock dip will generally do roughly the same damage as an identical fighter at 5th level would do because of cantrip scaling and spell boosts. A 4/1 Fighter-Monk and a 4/1 Fighter-Rogue is not very far behind due to martial arts and sneak attack respectively.

For example a 4/1 Fighter- undead Warlock with booming blade and Hex will do the same or more damage than the same fighter at 5th level using multi attack and he can throw down the frightened condition on top of that.




  • Fighters, rogues, and arguably barbarians get their last good ability at level 11. It might be worth hanging on for the level 12 ASI - but multiclass after that.
If I am going to multiclass it is usually before that because the character is designed to be multiclassed and by level 11 many campaigns are ending. Even campaigns that are going to 20 you are halfway complete.


  • Spellcasters shouldn't give up more than a single level in their primary class before level 18 - they find themselves an entire spell level behind in terms of spells known and upcast spells are almost never as good as at-level spells.
Some spells upcast better than others, if you know you are going to have slots with no spells you do need to ensure you get spells that upcast well, but there are plenty that do.

You also need to consider your ability score in this. A high level spell with a save against a lower ability score is usually going to be less effective than a good upcast 1st level spell upcast with a high spell casting ability. For example I have a 4th level sorcerer with a 13 charisma and an 18 intelligence. Fear is a great 3rd level spell in general, but going on to 5th level for Fear with a Sorcerer DC of 12 is not going to be very effective. The player is probably better off multiclassing to Wizard and picking up 1st level Cause Fear as a wizard and upcasting it at 3rd level with the Wizard DC of 15.

If they multiclass into another caster they are actually always ahead on spells known/prepared as each class prepares a full slate of spells for their level. The 5th level sorcerer above has 6 spells known (just counting class spells). A 4/1 Sorcerer Wizard with 18 int has 11 Known/Prepared.
 
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Unless they multiclass into another Martial, cleric or druid it is relatively rare that they will double their damage compared to a multiclass. A melee fighter 4 with a 1-level Wizard, Sorcerer or Warlock dip will generally do roughly the same damage as an identical fighter at 5th level would do because of cantrip scaling and spell boosts.
Can you run the math on what you claim the general case is here? Especially in the cantrip case. Are you doing something like assuming that Greenflame Blade gets two targets most of the time.
A 4/1 Fighter-Monk and a 4/1 Fighter-Rogue is not very far behind due to sneak attack and martial arts.
Only a dex based fighter - which is giving up a lot of the fighter's power.
For example a 4/1 Fighter- undead Warlock with booming blade and Hex will generally do slightly more damage than the same fighter at 5th level using multi attack and can throw down the frightened condition on top of that.
Because Hex is well known to be free and concentration checks always pass.

And no. Assuming one handed duelist style booming blade + hex = 1d6 + 1d8 damage. On the other hand a longsword + duelist attack = 1d8 STR + 2 = 1d8 + 5 or 1d8+6 depending on the STR boost. You do more damage if and only if the booming blade rider triggers.

Yes, an Undead Warlock in specific has a really strong multiclass.
Third level spells can be huge, but new 1st level class abilities can be huge to. Things like unarmored defense,
Unarmoured defence is just bad if you don't start with it. And unless your stats are utterly unreasonable you're normally getting a studded leather equivalent or possibly +1AC over that. Nope.
expertise,
Is useful - but not utterly overwhelming.
strength of the grave,
Useful - but the idea is to knock them down before they do you. Possibly worth it for barbarians.
martial weapon proficiency
Lol. One handed weapons go up from 1d6 to 1d8. Two handed weapons are a weird choice for classes that don't have them.
not to mention spells ..... These are all pretty big buffs you can get through a 1st-level dip.
And an extra attack is huge.
When weighing the benefits you need to consider explicitly what you are giving up with the class you are leaving and what you are getting with a new class and there are a lot more things to consider than combat, especially when you bring spells and skill-classes into the mix
Of course. Which is why if you were looking at a skill based class with two attacks (and you want expertise) you should treat the ranger as the baseline. Level 5 is, of course, when they get Pass Without Trace.
If I am going to multiclass it is usually before that because The character is designed to be multiclassed and by level 11 many campaigns are ending. Even campaigns that are going to 20 you are halfway complete.
So why did you pick the class you did?
You also need to consider your ability score in this. A high level spell with a save against a lower ability score is usually going to be less effective than a good upcast 1st level spell upcast with a high spell casting ability. For example I have a 4th level sorcerer with a 13 charisma and an 18 intelligence. Fear is a great 3rd level spell in general, but going on to 5th level for Fear with a Sorcerer DC of 12 is not going to be very effective. The player is probably better off multiclassing to Wizard and picking up 1st level Cause Fear and upcasting it at 3rd level with the Wizard DC of 15.
And if you have a 4th level sorcerer with 13 Cha and 18 Int I can only ask why????

Yes, it's possible to make characters that are obviously optimised for one class and then go into another for the sake of argument. But the character would have been best advised to not go into sorcerer in the first place and instead been a wizard or artificer all along.

I'm sorry but "Multiclassing from Sorcerer to Wizard with a 13 Cha and 18 Int character can work" is a silly argument.
If they multiclass into another caster they are actually always ahead on spells known/prepared as each class prepares a full slate of spells for their level. The 5th level sorcerer above has 6 spells known (just class spells). A 4/1 Sorcerer Wizard with 18 int has 10 Known/Prepared.
They have more spells known - but know precisely zero top level spells. And once more this is cherry picking; the sorcerer is known to be the weakest full spellcaster because they have too few spells known.

And just adding to that a level 5 sorcerer with either the Aberrant Mind or Clockwork Soul subclass would know 12 spells.

Also seriously. "An 18 Int 13 Cha sorcerer" and then criticising spells known. You know what would be more effective with Int 18 Cha 13 than Wizard 1/Sorcerer 4? Wizard 2/Sorcerer 3. You know what would be more effective still with that stat spread? Wizard 3/Sorcerer 2. You know what would be even more effective? Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1. And you know the most effective full caster with that stat spread? Wizard 5 and never having gone into sorcerer. And if you are going to multiclass out of wizard it's either a level of cleric or one of artificer for spells known and spell versatility. And armour (which sorcerers don't get)

So better late than never. But your argument here boils down to "If you picked the wrong class for your stat spread it's better to go in later than never".

There are some very edge cases where multiclassing before 5 can work. Like making an objectively bad choice for your opening class. But they are few and far between and you need to either make a mess of your math or find pretty cherry-picked situations for most of them.
 

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