D&D 5E good breakdown of multiclass vs single class for 5e?

[James Gasik]

Honestly, even if all that happens is the entire enemy team loses a turn shaking each other out of a trance, that's not the worst use of a spell. Otherwise, who needs Banishment when you have Hypnotic Pattern?

 

[ECMO3]

Honestly, even if all that happens is the entire enemy team loses a turn shaking each other out of a trance, that's not the worst use of a spell. Otherwise, who needs Banishment when you have Hypnotic Pattern?

It is rarely the whole team though. It is the number who failed. IF you use it on 7 Orcs for example, 2 of them are outside the AOE and 3 of the remaining 5 fail there will be 3 lost turns, two of the Orcs that failed and the one who wakes the first one.

 

[ECMO3]

Um... why? Do all monsters in your universe fight to the death every time? Especially when they know their allies are dead and they can make things worse for you by alerting their allies there are adventurers around.

I don't know, but I think this is ironic considering the next quote.

This is why Fear is a situational spell. There are a lot of times you don't want people running for help and screaming.

Ok. As a point of fact they can run for help screaming if you don't cast fear too and if that is what you don't want them to do it probably is what they would (or at least should) do.

But yes if you do not want them running from the room you should not cast fear. If you want to ""clear the room" you should cast fear.

And ultimately all that happens is you've cleared the room and that there are a collection of gargoyles wandering around either waiting to ambush you or alerting the other monsters in the dungeon.

You can follow them and they can't save as long as you do. If it is outside you can chase them until they all die or a minute ends.

This is neither more nor less than the Peasant Railgun abuse of D&D's simplifying a living universe to a turn-based game. For players to try this sort of cheese that allows messages to break the sound barrier let alone throw things would be silly. For the DM to deploy this sort of exploitative physics-based cheese to nerf a player ability is nothing more than prime grade douchbaggery. If the DM wants to automatically win they can just throw an asteroid or tarrasque at the players.

That is the rules and mechanics, you might not like them and are free to homebrew them.

You've bolded the wrong words. They each act at the same time. Which means they each start their action at the same time and they each finish their action at the same time. While the first one who saved is raising his hand to act the second one is staring at the pretty lights. Then the first one slaps the second and the second one blinks awake. They each act at the same time - but the first one has already acted which means that the second one can't take their action at the same time as the first because the first one's action has finished.

At the same time means on the same initiative. They do not start their "action" at the same time they start their turn at the same time and "act" at the same time. The move, action and bonus action all happen in that turn. If they started their action "at the same time" it would be impossible to move then attack(action) then disengage (BA) than move again using the remainder of your move if the guy next to starts off by attacking because they would both need to "use their action at the same time". The order they use their action, move, reaction is completely up to the enemy.

Further it would be impossible for enemies to "help" if this was correct because when you "help" the next person that attacks gets advantage. You have to "help" before the guy next to you uses his action to attack.

Please answer this is it possible for enemies to use help? Is it possible for one Goblin to start his turn with a move while another starts with an attack? How do you reconcile that with your logic here?

It doesn't lose a turn after it recovers. It loses the turn it started hypnotised.

That is not written in the spell.

"On a failed save, the creature becomes Charmed for the Duration. While Charmed by this spell, the creature is Incapacitated and has a speed of 0.

The spell ends for an affected creature if it takes any damage or if someone else uses an action to shake the creature out of its stupor."

It does not say it stays charmed until the end of its turn when shaken out of the stupor, it does not say the stupor has to last until its next turn. If you play it that way it is homebrew.

It hasn't recovered until the action on its own initiative is over,.

It does not say that in the spell description. It does not imply it, no rules anywhere suggest that.

It doesn't have to. Its action is happening at the same time as the action freeing it. Its action time has passed.

If that is how you want to characterize it fine, Goblin 1 shakes goblin 2 out of his charm and Goblin 2 attacks at the "same time". If that is how you want to play the fiction that is fine.

Moreover if this is really what is at play, how is it one Goblin attacks and then walks across the room while another walks across the room and then attacks if all the actions "happen at the same time"? Please explain this to me in light of your explanation above.

Nope. What is happening is that you are twisting the rules to give NPCs initiative-juggling superpowers.

It gives them the exact same initiative juggling capabilities that the PCs have.

The tables I DM roll initiative for everyone individually. Those I play on do it like that for the most part although two of them used use a single roll for a group of like creatures.

If you had eight goblins at initiative 13 you'd effectively have them acting on initiative 13.8, 13.7, 13.6 ... 13.1 so they each act in order.

This is how the tables I play with that have a single initiative have done it, although I do not know that this is articulated in the rules anywhare.

Moreover this undercuts your previous argument becuase 13.8 uses his turn (including action, bonus, move) before 13.7 goes.

If this is the case it is much like what I put initially and you will have a few of them lose 2 turns instead of 1 turn.

Which would be fair enough. But where the superpowers come in is that you arbitrarily allow the goblins to assign their initiative orders in any order on any turn.

As I said above on the two tables I played that used group initiative we used this. However where the rules come from is the PHB page 189 where it states "The DM decides the order among DM-controlled creatures"

As I say your interpretation is the same interpretation that the peasant railgun relies on, and it's the same exploit in both cases. And you're doing it all to make the PC abilities as uncool and ineffective as possible.

I am not familiar with the peasant railgun so if you want me to comment on it you are going to need to explain it.

 

[James Gasik]

And let's not forget, if enemies freeing their allies is "foul play", what are player characters affected by Hypnotic Pattern supposed to do?

 

[ECMO3]

So they run off and alert the other monsters in the dungeon.

You were looking for a spell to "clear the room" Fear does that, no way around it and it does it better than just about any spell short of 5th level.

There are all kinds of caveats when you may or may not want to use it.

Having your enemies bolt out of the room you're in is actually often a really really bad thing to happen.

If your goal is to "clear the room" it is the best thing that can happen.

Moreover the enemies can bolt out of the room without you casting the Fear spell as well and if it is "really, really bad" then it probably should happen.

You have built a strawman here where the room in question is something you want to clear but then not really clear.

I suppose they could make those saves early, and instead decide to simply return instead of rallying more troops and alerting the boss, but even then all you've done is buy yourselves a few rounds to prepare.

Assuming there is more troops. Assuming they lose sight of you. You are bringing lots of conditionals into this, beyond the original discussion of the spell.

Maybe the 3 who failed come running back in 4 rounds, meanwhile you killed the 2 that didn't without them in the room and they lost a ton of actions.

I suppose they could all just abandon the keep/cave/dungeon/wizards tower or whatever they are in as well.

Maybe they are a bunch of Drow that get advantage on the save against HP. Or maybe they are a bunch of Halflings that get advantage against frightened saves.

Maybe they are wild animals (a momma bear and her cubs), if you scare them off they ain't coming back and that is far better than incapacitating them all and then waking her by stabbing her.

Maybe you just want them to drop their weapons, wands, staves and as soon as they move away from those things you drop concentration and now they are unarmed and severely nerfed. An wizard without his focus or an unarmed Orc (if he already threw his javelin) is a lot less of a threat.

There are endless possibilities, and depending on those it might or might not be a great spell for that situation, but those are really not the focus of the discussion. As a combat spell free from such conditions and disclaimers; Fear is top tier, the best control spell and arguably the best spell period at 3rd level.

I have used this spell a lot in combat with 5 different DMs and this is what I can say from experience: Most of the time we never see the enemies that ran off ever again. Whatever they are Tyranasaurus, dragons, drow, Beholder ... most of the time that is the last we saw of them. Not always but most of the time.

We have also had another character vortex warp me to a group of Drow casters at the end of a long hall that we did not want to escape (we believed they had great magic items and we were mostly right). I moved to get behind them and cast Fear on them from behind and they fled towards the PCs. Then I dashed after them hitting them with AOOs. When they got past the PCs (taking AOOs) I misty stepped in front of them to make them run back the other way (through the PCs again).

Incinerating them before they can act is usually a far better option.

In actual play IME in terms of effectiveness blasting spells are not as effective as control spells in general.

As an example you mentioned saving your 3rd level slots for a dragon with legendaries in the last post. This was presumably to use fireball on the dragon? Each fireball would have averaged a whopping 14 damage on him!

 

[Flamestrike]

As an example you mentioned saving your 3rd level slots for a dragon with legendaries in the last post. This was presumably to use fireball on the dragon? Each fireball would have averaged a whopping 14 damage on him!

Each fireball would have done 14 damage on him, and used up a LR in the process, from a range of 150' and outside the range of its breath weapon.

Which is better than what Fear would have done in the same circumstance. It would have simply used a LR (and required me to get within 30' of an angry Dragon just to do so, and within range of it breath weapon) and not dealt any damage at all.

I know which is the better contribution to the fight.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:
Hey, @Flamestrike and @ECMO3 - You were asked to kindly find a way to stop butting heads. Second warning.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

So they run off and alert the other monsters in the dungeon.

Having your enemies bolt out of the room you're in is actually often a really really bad thing to happen.

I suppose they could make those saves early, and instead decide to simply return instead of rallying more troops and alerting the boss, but even then all you've done is buy yourselves a few rounds to prepare.

Incinerating them before they can act is usually a far better option.

Fireball sets everything in the room ablaze... That is not sneaky either...

 

[Neonchameleon]

Fireball sets everything in the room ablaze... That is not sneaky either...

But it doesn't stay around or spread out of the room if the doors are closed.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

But it doesn't stay around or spread out of the room if the doors are closed.

Depends on the room... And the doors.