D&D 5E good breakdown of multiclass vs single class for 5e?

[Flamestrike]

Fear clears a room a better than fireball.

No it doesnt.

You generally will have to win initiative or have surprise to clear a room with fireball. The irony is the more "mooks" in the room, the less likely you will win initiative.

I tend to roll for mooks as a group, as do most DMs I know.

And your comment doesnt bear out in actual play. I frequently see fireball clear whole rooms of mooks.

If at least 1 intelligent enemy saves they will NEVER lose more than 2 turns unless the DM is stupid. For example lets say you catch 14 bad guys in HP and 13 of them fail thier save. Let's evenly distribute initiative order among the wizard and 14 bad guys:


20: BG1
19: BG2
18: BG3
17: BG4
16: BG5
15: BG6
14: BG7
13: Wizard
12: BG8
11: BG9
10: BG10
9: BG11
8: BG12
7: BG13
6: BG14

You cast on initiative order 13. For the sake of this discussion we will say you catch every single one of them in HP and ONLY BG12 makes his save (initiative order 8). You had a great setup with 14 bad guys in the AOE and you got great rolls with 13 failing their saves and being charmed. After the wizards turn here is how it progresses:

12: BG 8 is charmed and can do nothing
11: BG 9 is charmed and can do nothing
10: BG10 is charmed and can do nothing
9: BG11 is charmed and can do nothing
8: BG12 uses action to wake BG 13
7: BG13 uses action to wake BG 14
6: BG14 uses action to wake bad guy 1
20: BG1 uses action to wake BG2
19: BG2 uses action to wake BG3
18: BG3 uses action to wake BG4
17: BG4 uses action to wake BG5
16: BG5 uses action to wake BG6
15: BG7 uses action to wake BG 8
Wizard -casts nonconcentration spell becasue he is still concentrating on the few that are not up /.. oh and it can not do damage to the remaining few charmed guys
13: BG8 uses action to wake BG9
12:BG9 uses action to wake BG10
11:BG10 uses action to wake BG11
ALL of them are now back in the fight

That is God awful DMing.

How many monsters, in the chaos of battle, are both intelligent enough and give enough of a naughty word about their allies to do that, and it only takes one dead creature in your chain of creatures to stop your conga line of waking other creatures up, and delay the whole thing by a third round.

So even assuming the above, you're looking at likely at least three rounds of the monsters running around doing jack squat, trying to wake each other up (comically I might add) while adventurers with sharp things are beating the snot out of them.

That is how the spell works and if your DM is not playing it that way then he is playing on easy mode for you.

No, he's just not a jerk, and is playing the monsters, through the monsters eyes.

Not true. Cantrip damage scales with character level not caster level, so at 5th level you get an extra 1d8 on a hit even if the enemy does not move

Yeah but your damage factored in the additional move damage I assumed.

vs AC 15

Ranger 5, Rapier, Hunters mark, Giant killer: DPR = 65 percent of 28.5. Hit probability (2 attacks at +7 vs AC 15) around 90 percent.

Your PC, GFB, with an adjacent creature (so as optimal as it gets for you), unarmed strike: DPR = 60 percent of 16.5 (10 damage or so)

The single classed PC is 30 percent more likely to hit and deal at least some damage, twice as likely to deal a critical hit, and deals (on average) roughly 10 points more damage each turn (on average).

How about our Fighter (SS, Combat superiority FS) shooting with with his Bow with SS on, and using a single sup dice for precise strike. He fires twice at +2 (40 percent chance to hit dealing 17.5) AT +6.5 (62.5 percent chance of another 17.5) damage each shot.

His second shot alone deals 1 more damage than your single classed PC (with a greater chance of hitting), he deals roughly 8 more damage on average each round than you do, doesnt need two creatures next to each other to do it, has over a 90 percent chance of hitting at least once each turn, and on those turns he lands both attacks deals damage you can only dream of.

18 strength greatsword 5th level 2 attacks AC 15: 14 DPR (11 damagex2 with a 65% chance to hit)
18 strength greatsword 5th level Booming Blade AC15: 10 plus 6 if he moves (15.5 damage + 9 movement damage with a 65% chance to hit)

YOU. DONT. HAVE. A. STRENGTH. OF 18. AT. 5TH. LEVEL. Feats are a class feature you dont have thanks to multiclassing.

Run the numbers again, drop your hit chance by 5 percent and damage by 1 point.

But fine, lets assume a dream MC of Fighter 4/ Cantrip granting class 1 vs Fighter 5.

Assuming the target doesnt move (and why would they) the single classed fighter deals 50 percent more damage than his MC comrade, deals some damage on his turn far more often than his MC comrade (65 vs 90 odd percent of the time), has roughly double the chance to land a critical hit (triggering a third attack thanks to GWM), and his maximum damage is 102 (GWM, crits) to the MC fighters (GWM, BB, Crit) 80.

When using action surge, more or less double those discrepancies. And being able to spam rider effects (like Sup dice, or magical weapons etc) only further favors the single classed PC

The cantrip takes up some of the slack here, but the single classed fighter is clearly superior, and doesnt need his target to move, or a convenient nearby target taking some piddling splash damage to close the gap.

 

[Flamestrike]

Ok so I decided to take your bait after thinking of it. We will compare a single class 5th level Enchatment Wizard vs a 3rd level Enchangment Wizard/2nd level twilight cleric. The party is 4: this character a Melee martial, a ranged Martial and a Rougue.

Cool. Ill pick fireball and hypnotic pattern as my 3rd level spells. Ill recover a spell slot of 3rd level with Arcane recovery after the first short rest too.

1. Hobgoblins and Boss = the play here is web. If the 5th level wizard had fear that would be the spell to use, but he doesn't and web is going to generally going to be the best option. Fireball would work if he won initiative (beating all 6 hobgoblins), but if he didn't this is probably not a good time to use it and it is overkill on 4 CR1/2 and a CR3. Upcast cause fear at 3rd level is probably the second best option if you are way down on the initiative order and the enemy is mixed up with you.

First all 6 of them need to be in a 20' cube. Second the save is DC 14 Dex, followed by a Str check DC 14 to break free (Mooks at +1 and Boss at +2). Lets assume 1 Mook is out of the effect, 3 fail their saves, and 1 mook and the boss make it. Of those that fail, 2 waste turns trying to get free (and fail) and 1 simply tosses a javelin (at disadvantage) at one of the creatures his boss or his buddies now threaten (for martial advantage to kick in).

I'll use my Fireball, DC 15 which has a 30' radius, and kills every mook it hits, even if they make their saves on average. No more martial advantage to worry about, and there is now a damaged Boss all on his lonesome for the rest of the party to murder.

Clear advantage to fireball.

You're down a 2nd, Im down a 3rd.

2. Ettins - Ettins have no ranged attack. The play here is upcast cause fear, if one is lucky enough to save you hit him with silvery barbs. They can't advance frightened so all they can do is dodge.

Err no. On their turns if the fail the save, they take the Dash action (as the spell requires them to take) until they're no longer in view of you, and then start making more saves to break the effect.

So fine, one fails his save and runs off around the dungeon for a few rounds (halving the battle difficulty) while the other passes (DC 14) which is fair enough seeing as they have advantage on saves vs being frightened (two heads). After a while the other one comes back.

While he's gone the rest of the party focus fire on the one that passed killing it on round 3. Then the other one comes back, or keeps running, alerting the rest of the dungeon to what the heck is going on (in this case he hasnt got anyone to tell, unless he's friends with the Gargoyles that is) which might make short resting very difficult.

Ill just fireball them again (so the martials can finish them off on their turn) where they're at -1 to save vs DC 15 likely taking 28 odd damage each, or around a 1/3 of their HP.

The party kill one no later than round 2, and the other on round 4, taking a little bit of damage in the process, but that's OK because we're about to...

SHORT REST

Cool. I'll get back a 3rd. You can recover a second. The slightly wounded PCs can get back HD and the Fighter gets back his sup dice, action surge and second wind. He's as good as new.

3. 4 Gargoyles: This is where it gets interesting. Initiative order matters a lot here.

Assume you're surprised. They are gargoyles after all.

Given that I think upcast cause fear at 3rd level on three of them is the best play for both players here. You probably don't get it off before a couple of them swarm you, but you prioritize ones that are not yet engaged and if you hit some that are engaged either they have disadvantage or your allies can disengage. Bless would be an alternative for the multiclass character, probably upcast at 2nd level, but unless you are at the very bottom of the initiative order I think upcast cause feat is better here.

You can position your cone and get both. I'll even have both fail their saves. On their turn they fly off (taking attacks of opportunity) screeching, taking the Dash action to move 120' away, up or into the nearest cover they can find, repeating this each turn (as the spell requires). When they can no longer see you anymore, they make saves each turn till they both make it, returning to the battle.

Useful but not game changing.

My Wizard just spams cantrips, and maybe a shield spell to save his bacon, and lets the fighter, cleric and rogue deal with this. I want to save my big booms for later on.

4. 1 Ghast and 4 Ghouls

The Wizard probably uses web here, even if he only catches a few. That is a good play. He could fireball, but he has a long day ahead still. The multiclass can turn undead though and that takes on average 3 of them out of the fight completely.

And then they come back or alert the rest of the dungeon to your presence. You've bought some time, nothing more.

Ill web likely catching most of them. At DC 15 the fighter, cleric and rogue can smack them silly at advantage for at least a round.

5. 2 Wyrmlings:
There are a lot of options here and it depends on if this is outside or inside. We will assume it is outside and the wyrmlings will use flyby tactics when out of breath. By saying that I mean they will fly over everyone come down and attack someone with a ranged weapon (or no weapon) and climb back up to range.

Yeah no, they're going to spam breath weapons. overlapping those AoE's as often as they can (10d8 or 45 points of damage in a 15' line). Move breathe, then number 2 moves adjacent to 1, breath along the same path, then (presuming no real risk of an AoO the second one moves again to put some distance between him and his brother).

You and I will both burn at least a 1st level slot on Absorb elements to survive the opening salvo, because they can position themselves to get to the casters, and that's what they'll do.

I don't think you use a spell here, especially if you know momma is around.

I've been saving my last 3rd level slot for a BBEG.

Ill web them to bring them to ground. It likely buys the rest of my party an entire round of wailing on at least on of them prone and restrained (and to spread out to avoid the AoO) before they can fly off again, which likely sees it dead before the web ends, and hopefully before its breath weapon recharges.

Ill presume you do the same.

6. Young Black Dragon

You gave this dragon legendaries, which means save or suck is useless and the party does not have enough spell slots to burn through his legendaries.

going into this the multiclass is going to use twilight sanctuary the 1st turn and most likely save slots (1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd) for either absorb elements or healing word. After the dragon uses a breath weapon he can consider sanctuary as a bonus action cast. Sanctuary has the potential to actually burn through more than one legendary because he saves every time he attack the multiclass. This might work it might not, if he gets down to 0 and he has no legendaries lefe, cause fear is an option which would mean if he is using a flyby attack that he can't attack until he saves)

You cast sanctuary and are effectively out of the fight barring help actions and the effect of your ward, which wont do too much seeing as the Dragon is going to try and keep its distance and torch the party with its breath weapon (although this triggers a save if you're in it, possibly burning a LR).

Ill repeatedly nuke the thing with Scorching rays, starting with a 3rd level upcast, then my 3 remaining 2nds, then falling back to magic missiles (while absorbing elements, and moving away from the party to avoid the AoE) while the Rogue and Fighter shoot it to death, and the Cleric regrets being a Strength build with no missile weapons and realises that other than spiritual weapon (which it keeps its distance from) and sacred flame, he kind of sucks at range.

That said, after the battle, he brings the Fighter back from the dead with revivify, so he earned his place right there.

Again, I know who I would rather have in my party for pretty much every single one of those battles, and it aint the MC PC.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:

It looks like two of you are at loggerheads. I'm going to ask that you please break that logjam, before it has to be broken for you. Find a way to agree to disagree, disengage, stop and say, "Okay, you have a point," or something. But beating your heads together further isn't constructive to the conversation.

 

[ECMO3]

nm

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Best part is:
both of you proved that both characters are viable. And this is why I love the multiclass rules the way they are.

 

[James Gasik]

Agreed, while it's true the level 5 features/spells are very strong, and it may not seem optimal* to multiclass early, you're still able to hold your own weight, and you might even end up with some fairly neat tricks in your arsenal.

*Assuming optimization is something you care about or your table requires.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Fear clears a room a better than fireball.

That depends what you mean by "clears a room". And whether you're talking about Fear or Cause Fear.

First, Fear does not drop people in the room. It clears the room - the foes run away and fight you later. Second foes under Fear may have disadvantage - but can still attack. Dead is the best control condition there is.

You generally will have to win initiative or have surprise to clear a room with fireball. The irony is the more "mooks" in the room, the less likely you will win initiative.

Not by the Rules as Written unless the mooks are of different types. From the 5e SRD:

Initiative​

​

Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The GM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time.​

So all the generic goblins act on the same initiative. You don't have multiple rolls to beat them.

And before you say something, this isn't a rule for identical clones. Those are rare enough that you wouldn't bother to have a rule for clones in the general rules, you'd instead place it in the statblock of the clones. It is instead for mechanically identical creatures.

If at least 1 intelligent enemy saves they will NEVER lose more than 2 turns unless the DM is stupid. For example lets say you catch 14 bad guys in HP and 13 of them fail thier save. Let's evenly distribute initiative order among the wizard and 14 bad guys:

This analysis ignores two important things.

• Groups of identical creatures act on the same initiative. So only one of them is active on their turn unless either this is a weird group or the DM is houseruling.
• The wizard has allies. The wizard hypnotic patterns all but one or two of the targets and the rest of the party's job is then to take down those one or two foes.

It's not a perfect spell but it works.

That is how the spell works and if your DM is not playing it that way then he is playing on easy mode for you. I know a lot of tables homebrew this spell so enemies that are awaken can't use actions, but that is not RAW

Please stop confusing your homebrewed initiative rules for RAW. What most DMs who aren't homebrewing do is say that "each member of the group acts at the same time" - as the RAW says. Which means that their turn has already started by the time their fellow NPC is shaking them awake. And because it took that NPC's action to shake them awake and they are acting simultaneously they don't have an action left.

 

[ECMO3]

That depends what you mean by "clears a room". And whether you're talking about Fear or Cause Fear.

First, Fear does not drop people in the room. It clears the room - the foes run away and fight you later. Second foes under Fear may have disadvantage - but can still attack. Dead is the best control condition there is.

I was talking about the spell Fear and as you said it "clears the room" (of everyone who did not save). They can not attack because they must drop what they are holding and use the dash action to run away from you. If they have a bonus action attack they could use that with disadvantage I guess. They don't get to save until they are out of sight. That means if they fail they are out of the fight for at least 2 turns and probably more. Since they dashed to get away from you, it is going to take a turn to dash back even if they get out of sight and make their save on the first turn and if they were holding weapons those are back on the ground where they dropped them. Obviously ranged attacks and terrain can affect this, but that works both ways, on the flip side in ideal terrain it could take 5 turns or more to get out of sight and even try to make a save.

I am a huge fan of Cause Fear as well, and I think that upcasts very well. It is probably the best 1st level Wizard spell in terms of offensive use upcasting on higher level slots. It does not clear a room though.

The advantage with Cause Fear is you pick your enemies so it is great low on the initiative order when everybody is mixed up. With Cause Fear frightened enemies absolutely can attack with disadvantage, but they can't move closer to the cause of their fear. Because of this you can generally limit the number of attacks they can take with positioning. If you are fighting a frightened enemy and you are the cause of its fear or the cause of its fear is behind you can back up out of reach and then it can't melee you on its turn. It might get an AOO (at disadvantage) but you would usually be trading one AOO for multiattack.

The Gargoyles used in the example are a great example of this; they have a 0 wis save and get 3 attacks. If three of them are in melee beating up on you and your fighter you can't really use the Fear spell or Hypnotic Pattern easily. But you can put down cause fear, then you back up taking a single bite attack at disadvantage. On his turn the fighter does the same thing. Now the Gargoyles on their turn are screwed. They can't attack because no one is in reach and they can't move towards you. Your fighter can kite in and out taking only one attack from the one he targets instead of 3 attacks and you can do whatever it is you would be doing from range. This is an ideal example, but it is actually one I have played many times with this specific enemy.

Cause Fear is also great against a single melee boss with a low wis save for the same reason, keep him at range where he can't hurt you as much.

Initiative​

​

Initiative determines the order of turns during combat. When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order. The GM makes one roll for an entire group of identical creatures, so each member of the group acts at the same time.​

So all the generic goblins act on the same initiative. You don't have multiple rolls to beat them.
This analysis ignores two important things.

• Groups of identical creatures act on the same initiative. So only one of them is active on their turn unless either this is a weird group or the DM is houseruling.
• The wizard has allies. The wizard hypnotic patterns all but one or two of the targets and the rest of the party's job is then to take down those one or two foes.

It's not a perfect spell but it works.

They act on the same initiative roll but they all have individual turns, individual actions, individual moves and individual bonus actions.

If you are using group initiative then they can all use actions to shake one and other out of it. That makes it a lot easier for them and means all happens at once:

If 10 goblins are on an 8 initiative count and it gets to them and 9 of them are charmed, the one that isn't charmed wakes another (using bonus action disengage if necessary), that one wakes a second, that one wakes a third. .....

All of them are back in one turn. That is RAW. As you bolded above they each act at the same time. Every Goblin can act (take action, bonus and movement) on that count. The spell does not say a charmed creature loses a turn after it recovers, it also does not say that when freed the charm ends at the start of its next turn or the end of the turn of the creature that frees it. When the first Goblin wakes the second, it is no longer charmed, it is the same initiative count and that Goblin can "act" as noted above in the description on initiative. It can use its action immediately and it can use it to do anything it can do with an action to include waking another Goblin.

Using inidividual intiative actually gives the spell an advantage in this regard because it gives the party opportunity to intervene as you alluded to before they are all awakened in one big avalanche.

 

[Flamestrike]

I was talking about the spell Fear and as you said it "clears the room" (of everyone who did not save). They can not attack because they must drop what they are holding and use the dash action to run away from you. If they have a bonus action attack they could use that with disadvantage I guess. They don't get to save until they are out of sight. That means if they fail they are out of the fight for at least 2 turns and probably more. Since they dashed to get away from you, it is going to take a turn to dash back even if they get out of sight and make their save on the first turn and if they were holding weapons those are back on the ground where they dropped them.

So they run off and alert the other monsters in the dungeon.

Having your enemies bolt out of the room you're in is actually often a really really bad thing to happen.

I suppose they could make those saves early, and instead decide to simply return instead of rallying more troops and alerting the boss, but even then all you've done is buy yourselves a few rounds to prepare.

Incinerating them before they can act is usually a far better option.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I was talking about the spell Fear and as you said it "clears the room" (of everyone who did not save). They can not attack because they must drop what they are holding and use the dash action to run away from you. If they have a bonus action attack they could use that with disadvantage I guess. They don't get to save until they are out of sight. That means if they fail they are out of the fight for at least 2 turns and probably more. Since they dashed to get away from you, it is going to take a turn to dash back

Um... why? Do all monsters in your universe fight to the death every time? Especially when they know their allies are dead and they can make things worse for you by alerting their allies there are adventurers around.

This is why Fear is a situational spell. There are a lot of times you don't want people running for help and screaming.

even if they get out of sight and make their save on the first turn and if they were holding weapons those are back on the ground where they dropped them. Obviously ranged attacks and terrain can affect this, but that works both ways, on the flip side in ideal terrain it could take 5 turns or more to get out of sight and even try to make a save.

I am a huge fan of Cause Fear as well, and I think that upcasts very well. It is probably the best 1st level Wizard spell in terms of offensive use upcasting on higher level slots. It does not clear a room though.

And ultimately all that happens is you've cleared the room and that there are a collection of gargoyles wandering around either waiting to ambush you or alerting the other monsters in the dungeon. It solves the tactical problem but makes the strategic problem worse. Meanwhile dead monsters don't come back to wreck your day later. Indeed one of the most common battlecries is "Don't let any of them get away".

They act on the same initiative roll but they all have individual turns, individual actions, individual moves and individual bonus actions.

If you are using group initiative then they can all use actions to shake one and other out of it. That makes it a lot easier for them and means all happens at once:

If 10 goblins are on an 8 initiative count and it gets to them and 9 of them are charmed, the one that isn't charmed wakes another (using bonus action disengage if necessary), that one wakes a second, that one wakes a third. .....

This is neither more nor less than the Peasant Railgun abuse of D&D's simplifying a living universe to a turn-based game. For players to try this sort of cheese that allows messages to break the sound barrier let alone throw things would be silly. For the DM to deploy this sort of exploitative physics-based cheese to nerf a player ability is nothing more than prime grade douchbaggery. If the DM wants to automatically win they can just throw an asteroid or tarrasque at the players.

All of them are back in one turn. That is RAW. As you bolded above they each act at the same time.

You've bolded the wrong words. They each act at the same time. Which means they each start their action at the same time and they each finish their action at the same time. While the first one who saved is raising his hand to act the second one is staring at the pretty lights. Then the first one slaps the second and the second one blinks awake. They each act at the same time - but the first one has already acted which means that the second one can't take their action at the same time as the first because the first one's action has finished.

Every Goblin can act (take action, bonus and movement) on that count. The spell does not say a charmed creature loses a turn after it recovers,

It doesn't lose a turn after it recovers. It loses the turn it started hypnotised. It hasn't recovered until the action on its own initiative is over,.

it also does not say that when freed the charm ends at the start of its next turn or the end of the turn of the creature that frees it.

It doesn't have to. Its action is happening at the same time as the action freeing it. Its action time has passed.

Using inidividual intiative actually gives the spell an advantage in this regard because it gives the party opportunity to intervene as you alluded to before they are all awakened in one big avalanche.

Nope. What is happening is that you are twisting the rules to give NPCs initiative-juggling superpowers. If you had eight goblins at initiative 13 you'd effectively have them acting on initiative 13.8, 13.7, 13.6 ... 13.1 so they each act in order. Which would be fair enough. But where the superpowers come in is that you arbitrarily allow the goblins to assign their initiative orders in any order on any turn. To add insult to injury the reason you use multiple identical monsters on the same turn is they are unimportant so it saves tracking.

As I say your interpretation is the same interpretation that the peasant railgun relies on, and it's the same exploit in both cases. And you're doing it all to make the PC abilities as uncool and ineffective as possible.