D&D 5E good breakdown of multiclass vs single class for 5e?

[ECMO3]

Look at the above encounters and consider the impact of Fireball, or Hypnotic pattern, or Revivify, or Extra Attack or 12 bardic inspiration die instead of 4, or 15 Ki points (and stunning fist) etc.

I think just about any 5th level party will deal with those encounters easily.

There are a bunch of good 3rd level spells, but the ones you mentioned are not game changers. As for the spells you mention:
1. Revify is irrelevant in the encounters you listed because with a party of 5th level characters no one should die in those encounters. Also if you can afford the material components, then you should have plenty of healing potions.
2. Fireball is ok, but nothing to write home about. Unless you are an evoker you will generally get more mileage out of an upcast control spell.
3. Hypnotic pattern with a DC 15 is going to basically make some of the enemies lose 1 action. It is good agaisnt the Ettins and dragons because you can probably hit both of the wyrmlings/Ettins or the adult, meaning you can take out all enemies and take a couple rounds to buff and take them on one at a time. Against the other enemies it is going to be 1 lost action because at least one enemy will probably save and that means all of them will be back in the fight in about 1 round. I know some tables like to hombrew HP and make it more powerful, but RAW as long as one enemy saves it is a very weak spell because enemies that are shaken out of it can act immediately.

Your argument would have been better if you picked good 3rd level spells that really are game changers like fear, fly or counterspell.

Extra attack vs BB/GFB is worth about 25 damage to the enemy per combat, a lot of that coming at the end when the fight is essentially won. The only way it is worth more is if you optimize a character for melee combat and a character optimized for melee is not going to be very good against those flying dragons (a chill touch or firebolt will outrun him).

12 bardic inspiration vs 4 - sure that is good, but it is not better than having shield and absorb elements spells on your list, with the ability to cast them using any of your slots. Shout out to eldritch blast and Hex too! Either of these would be FAR better than picking up Hypnotic Pattern and 8 more inspiration. HP may be most worthless 3rd level AOE spell there is. How about multiclassing at level 3 and picking up channel divinity (3 Bard/2 cleric).

The sole thing on your list that is actually a big deal is stunning fist.

 

[Older Beholder]

I think in most cases multiclassing isn't really worth the trade off. Although I personally like it from a thematic / storytelling perspective.
Chances are you'll fall a bit behind other single classed characters for straight up power, but you'll gain a bit more versatility.

Also, there are often sub-classes or feats that will do a good job of covering what it is you want from multiclassing anyway.

 

[Jer]

Says the player who rocked up to a table with a class designed purely to abuse the 5 minute work day.

It's like losing a player who rocked up with a bag of rats. It would be no great loss.

No, this DM is being a jerk:

DM: You rest and your rest is uneventful, and plagued by bad dreams. It has no effect. When you leave your magical shelter, the BBEG has completed the ritual, and the townsfolk have been slain.

(Has quick out of game chat with the players about what happens when you attempt to game the 5 minute WD at his table. Points the door out to anyone who complains).

What do you do?

Rocks fall, everyone dies. no saving throw, no warning, no anything.

That's not how an adult handles a situation like this. An adult DM will stop the game and say "hey guys, this looks like a rules abuse in my book and so if you go forward with it, what will happen is that the bad guy's ritual is going to go off - are you cool with that"? And then doesn't treat the players like cheating children but instead like adults who are there to enjoy a game with them.

Any DM who isn't going to treat me like an adult isn't worth my time to play with. Any DM who isn't going to treat my fellow players like grownups is also not worth playing with. I'm nearly a half century old, I do not need to be lectured to like I'm a 12 year old.

 

[Flamestrike]

No, this DM is being a jerk:



Rocks fall, everyone dies. no saving throw, no warning, no anything.

That's not how an adult handles a situation like this.

Except that's not what happened. No-one died, and no rocks fell.

An adult DM will stop the game and say "hey guys, this looks like a rules abuse in my book and so if you go forward with it, what will happen is that the bad guy's ritual is going to go off - are you cool with that"?

And that's exactly what this DM did. He had an out of game chat with the players as to WHY the rest did not function, and told them (as adults) not to abuse the rest mechanic, and that if it happens again, the door is that-a-way.

Something he has already told them in session zero by the way.

And why on earth am I required to tell the PCs what the BBEG will be doing during the time they're resting, if they decide to pause the adventure to rest for an hour (or eight) in the middle of it?

There is an expectation the BBEG just sits around waiting for them is there?

If you're there to thwart the BBEG and take the night off to rest, expect the BBEG to do something with that time (like complete his nefarious plan).

And then doesn't treat the players like cheating children

If those players are rocking up to the table with a class specifically designed to abuse the rest mechanic, or with a bag-o-rats or similar, they are cheating children. They've literally rocked up to a collaborative game, intending on abusing the rules to their advantage.

They're no different to people who use cheat software on online games or abuse glitches in games to spam items for profit. It ruins the fun for everyone else.

Luckily we have an omnipotent Admin (the DM) to put a stop to that.

 

[Flamestrike]

There are a bunch of good 3rd level spells, but the ones you mentioned are not game changers. As for the spells you mention:
1. Revify is irrelevant in the encounters you listed because with a party of 5th level characters no one should die in those encounters.

The Dragon alone spits out 45 odd damage with its breath weapon on an average damage roll in an AoE. One lucky breath weapon roll or two and its likely game over for several PCs.

The thing with revivify is that if you happen to have an encounter where the dice are with the DM (and not the party) unless its a TPK or the Cleric dies (or Bard, they can get it to) death is no longer permanent, it's a financial penalty.

2. Fireball is ok, but nothing to write home about. Unless you are an evoker you will generally get more mileage out of an upcast control spell.

Yeah nah. 5E is heavily mook dependent for its encounters, and nothing clears a room of mooks better than a Fireball.

Even if they dont drop straight up, they're now 1 hit away from death from the other PCs.

3. Hypnotic pattern with a DC 15 is going to basically make some of the enemies lose 1 action. It is good agaisnt the Ettins and dragons because you can probably hit both of the wyrmlings/Ettins or the adult, meaning you can take out all enemies and take a couple rounds to buff and take them on one at a time. Against the other enemies it is going to be 1 lost action because at least one enemy will probably save and that means all of them will be back in the fight in about 1 round.

No, they wont be. It takes an action to wake someone (presuming the monsters have the presence of mind to attempt it, and don't just run off and leave their friends to die, because 'evil') so unless your monsters have very convenient initiative results, and are also able to move freely, and are so inclined to try and wake their buddies, it's a lot longer than 1 round to wake everyone up.

Extra attack vs BB/GFB is worth about 25 damage to the enemy per combat,

No, it's not. It's worth considerably more than that (and your damage only works if you're fighting 2 or more creatures adjacent to each other with GFB, or they move with BB).

You're still only making one attack roll. The benefits of two attack rolls can not be underestimated (as you're doing here). It's not just an exponential increase in damage, it also makes your damage more reliable (because you have two chances to hit) and increases your crit probability exponentially (double the chance of a critical hit), which can have game changing impacts with riders (smites, smite spells, sup dice, sneak attack, hunters mark etc).

12 bardic inspiration vs 4 - sure that is good, but it is not better than having shield and absorb elements spells on your list, with the ability to cast them using any of your slots.

You. Have. 2. Slots Per. Long. Rest.

2 slots to use either shield or absorb elements over a 6 encounter/ 2 short rest adventuring day (the default) compared to 14 uses of Bardic inspiration being a floating +1d8 to an attack roll or save?

I know which of those helps a party out more, and contributes to the overall success more, and it aint the 2 slots.

Shout out to eldritch blast and Hex too! Either of these would be FAR better than picking up Hypnotic Pattern and 8 more inspiration. HP may be most worthless 3rd level AOE spell there is. How about multiclassing at level 3 and picking up channel divinity (3 Bard/2 cleric).

There is some merit to Bards getting EB (and Hex) because their 'at will' damage sucks.

But if I was advertising for a Bard for my party in the employment section of my local paper, and I had the choice between the following candidates for my party:

Lock 2/ Bard 3: Cha 16 or 17, 3 x BI (d6) per Long rest, Eldritch blast + Hex (2d10+6 damage - and uses the bonus action needed to give BI out in the first place for the Hex)
Bard 5: Cha 18 (4th level ASI), 12 x effective uses of BI per Long rest (d8's), has Hypnotic pattern, spamming a 2d4 damage vicious mockery.

I'm hiring option 2 every day of the week.

 

[Flamestrike]

Instead of focusing on random combats, why don't you address the things I said I care about? I specifically bolded them in the original post on page 3 and you still ignored them. I will post them again here.

Charisma save vs damage to keep from going to 0 hp
proficiency in Con and Charisma
Darkvision 120 feet (please do not suggest a different race)
Shield
BB, GFB cantrips
5 cantrips
6 spells
second wind 1d10+5
Action Surge
40hp (please don't come back with another character with a higher constitution)
Martial Arts
1d8 Martial Arts damage
Stunning Strike

At 5th level (the level we are talking about here) you're a Monk 3/ Sorc 1/ Ftr 1 so you dont have Stunning strike, or Action surge, and your Second wind only heals 1d10+1.

And you're free to use any of the rest of those abilities in your fight vs the Fighter or Sorcerer or Monk. The Fighter still kills you outright in turn 4 with average rolls, and the Sorcerer does it at the end of turn 2, even with you going first.

Both still have enough juice in the tank to do it a couple of times between long rests as well.

You probably beat the Monk though; it's highly dependent on Stunning strike going off (and your good Cons save really helps there).

 

[Flamestrike]

If you have a 36% chance of hitting your explicit chances are:

two hits: 13%
zero hits: 42%
first hit second miss: 23%
first miss second hit: 23%

No that's not correct.

You need to compound a 36 percent chance of hitting, with another second chance independent of the first one.

A 25 percent chance (odds of rolling a 4 on a d4) increases to 50 percent when rolling 2d4 trying to roll a single 4.

With a 36 percent hit chance (and two attempts to reach it, independent of each other) I have a higher chance of hitting you each round, than you do of hitting me with your single attempt at 45 percent.

Regardless you will do LESS damage in the first 2 turns then I calculated because you will be using precision LESS. You may make up for it later on, but you won't take me to 0 any earlier than turn 4.

Read what I posted again. I did ZERO damage to you the first 2 of my turns (thanks to you using shield, and disadvantage from dodging) and I also burned a Sup dice in the process.

Im not sure how I can do less than zero damage.

Your math is way off. The chance of rolling between a 10-13 on a roll with disadvantage is exactly 16%.

Yes but if I roll a 14 or higher, its a moot point because I hit regardless of shield or anything else. I only need to factor in the odds of rolling at least a 10 (which triggers my use of precise strike). Anything more than a 13 just hits you without precise strike, so it's moot.

My odds of hitting a base attack roll of 10 with disadvantage are 30 percent, each swing.

So actually my Math is accurate, it's yours that is way off.

To be more accurate:

+7 to hit (Bow) at Disadvantage vs AC 16 (shield at 21):

Roll 1-4 = miss. Roughly 27 percent of all attack rolls fall in this range thanks to disadvantage, and 100 percent of all rolls will roll at least a 1.
Roll 5+ = hit base AC with precise strike, miss if shielded or not using precise. Roughly 64 percent of all attack rolls roll at least this number with disadvantage.
Roll a 9 exactly: Hit your base AC but shield stops it unless I precise strike. Roughly 36 percent chance.
Roll 10+ = hit even shielded AC, but requires precise strike. Roughly 30 percent of all attack rolls are at least this high thanks to disadvantage.
Roll 14+ hit even shielded AC, not using precise strike. Only 12 percent of attack rolls fall in this category thanks to disadvantage.

I presumed the worst in my math. Even if I use results of at least '9' for my base attack roll (and that's a 36 percent chance of happening on each of two swings, so odds are it happens at least once a turn) you're required to use shield to stop the attack.

There are tactical variables of course. You're more likely to use shield if you get hit on the first attack than the second, and the d8 roll of the Precise strike dice is another variable (but note I intentionally play the odds and only use it when I need no more than a 4 to hit, unless desperate), but even with you dodging, and using shield, my odds of hitting you each round are actually around 30 percent per swing (I hit on a 10 or more using precise strike) and with two chances to land them, Im actually more likely than you to do so with your single attack.

But still. I just assumed I missed all 4 attacks over the first two rounds thanks to you using shield and dodging, and even burnt a superiority dice in a failed effort to bypass it.

And those are attack rolls at [+7, +7] so a greater than 50 percent chance of hitting and then +7(+1d8) and +7 so also a greater than 50 percent chance of hitting vs AC 16.

Over the same two rounds, I averaged your damage, so it's the same as giving you 1 hit and 1 miss (which favors you seeing as your odds of hitting me at least once each turn are only 40 percent, so less than mine).

On Turn 3 if you dodge again (burning your last Ki point) it's only two more attacks (but I likely hit you at least once in any event as I have 2 x 36 percent chances to do so). Unless you got really lucky and smacked me senseless in rounds 1-3 and my second wind failed me, I save Action surge (and at least a sup dice or two) for turn 4 when you're facing 4 attacks, at your base AC of 16.

It's turn 4 where you likely die, even should you have full HP at that stage.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And that's exactly what this DM did. He had an out of game chat with the players as to WHY the rest did not function, and told them (as adults) not to abuse the rest mechanic, and that if it happens again, the door is that-a-way.

Treating the players as adults is a very long way from what the DM did. He didn't have an out of game chat. He arbitrarily declared in an act of DM fiat "You rest and your rest is uneventful, and plagued by bad dreams. It has no effect. When you leave your magical shelter, the BBEG has completed the ritual, and the townsfolk have been slain." When the DM declared "It has no effect" he literally retconned the game universe because he didn't like the rules of the game and in a high handed and arbitrary manner punished the players for something that seemingly all of them agreed would work. He considered himself an adult laying down the law to children rather than paid any attention at all to their side the way an adult would. The DM was a jerk.

What a non-jerk DM who wasn't on a power trip would have done would be to have respected the character's competence and had the conversation before abusing DM fiat to piss all over a plan that, according to all the information both player and character alike would have had. They would at the very least have told the player that that wasn't going to work - and that their character would have known that. And that because the character would have known that and the player made the choice under the sincere belief it would work they could re-choose the abilities or spells they were trying to use.

The player trying to slip in a rest may or may not have been a jerk. Different groups have different approaches to whether it should be allowed. The DM who decided to house rule on the fly that it did not work and then punished the players for even trying and didn't actually discuss things with them was absolutely a jerk.

Something he has already told them in session zero by the way.

This is information not presented in your initial scenario. Otherwise known as "moving the goalposts".

And why on earth am I required to tell the PCs what the BBEG will be doing during the time they're resting, if they decide to pause the adventure to rest for an hour (or eight) in the middle of it?

And this is where I have to say "are you kidding me?" The example given that you then had the DM be a jerk in response to used the Catnap spell to have a short rest in the space of ten minutes. If the BBEG was ten minutes away from completing their ritual and you didn't communicate it that's really not setting the stakes properly. And if you hadn't decided beforehand that the BBEG was less than ten minutes from completing their ritual and suddenly the BBEG completes their ritual then it's obviously punishing the players.

And all because the DM can't stand that the players used a spell for its intended purpose.

If those players are rocking up to the table with a class specifically designed to abuse the rest mechanic, or with a bag-o-rats or similar, they are cheating children. They've literally rocked up to a collaborative game, intending on abusing the rules to their advantage.

And if the DM doesn't accept that the players can and should be able to do things the DM hasn't anticipated that derail their plans then the DM is too immature to be DMing and, if they want the characters to always take the option they decide they should give up DMing and instead take up novel writing.

Having short rests of the rules and using spells for their intended purpose is not an abuse of the rules even if it makes the DM feel that they do not have complete control over everything. And the example you were replying to used Catnap and Rope Trick for their intended purpose.

It is also a collaborative game - and the players are collaborating and working together. The person who is not collaborating and is throwing a hissy fit is the DM. And part of the art of DMing is learning to enjoy losing because your NPCs almost always will.

They're no different to people who use cheat software on online games or abuse glitches in games to spam items for profit. It ruins the fun for everyone else.

Luckily we have an omnipotent Admin (the DM) to put a stop to that.

The person using cheat software (retcons) in your example is the DM. The players aren't even glitch-hunting. They are just using spells like Rope Trick and Catnap for their intended purpose.

 

[Flamestrike]

Treating the players as adults is a very long way from what the DM did. He didn't have an out of game chat.

From the post of mine where you're saying this didnt happen:

DM: You rest and your rest is uneventful, and plagued by bad dreams. It has no effect. When you leave your magical shelter, the BBEG has completed the ritual, and the townsfolk have been slain.

(Has quick out of game chat with the players about what happens when you attempt to game the 5 minute WD at his table. Points the door out to anyone who complains).

What do you do?

Go back and have a read.

You have some kind of problem with a DM declaring that (while the players were taking 8 hours off, in a deliberate attempt to game the system and abuse the rest mechanic, the BBEG finishes the evil task he was attempting)?

Why shouldn't the Players taking 8 hours to put their feet up and chill out have consequences?

Do your villains just sit around in stasis and wait for the Heroes to foil their plans?

 

[Neonchameleon]

From the post of mine where you're saying this didnt happen:



Go back and have a read.

You have some kind of problem with a DM declaring that (while the players were taking 8 hours off, in a deliberate attempt to game the system and abuse the rest mechanic, the BBEG finishes the evil task he was attempting)?

Why shouldn't the Players taking 8 hours to put their feet up and chill out have consequences?

First the DM punished the players before having a chat with them. Not after.

Second go back and have a read of your own post. Because you literally started with the following quote (emphasis mine):

Well, except with magic. You can jump into a Rope Trick, hide behind your indestructible portable bunker (sometimes called Leomund's Tiny Hut), cast your Catnap spells to short rest inside of 10 minutes, and super high level groups can just pop into an extradimensional mansion.

The post you are replying to is explicitly talking about the players short resting inside ten minutes. And because the players have taken ten minutes to have a rest your DM has decided "rest bad and the BBEG must have eight hours to do things".

That's a jerk DM. And if it's that the DM made a mistake and didn't realise that the players were only resting for about ten minutes as they explicitly were it's categorically a jerk DM who didn't listen to the players. And then called them abusive, changed the rules on a spell to say it didn't do what the spell said (despite that being the entire point of the catnap spell) and is the one being the jerk here.