D&D 5E good breakdown of multiclass vs single class for 5e?

[ECMO3]

To my understanding, "Coffeelock" requires deliberately avoiding Long Rests (which is where the "coffee" comes from--drinking caffeine to avoid sleeping) in order to stack Sorcery point totals to arbitrarily high levels. Just using leftover Pact Magic slots to top up Sorcery points is just the standard Sorlock combo. I can definitely see why avoiding Long Rests is considered abusive, but I don't see why just combining Flexible Casting and Pact Magic would be.

I think there is 2 things that prevent this. First exhaustion levels. Second you can never have more sorcery points than your maximum.

 

[Xetheral]

I think there is 2 things that prevent this. First exhaustion levels. Second you can never have more sorcery points than your maximum.

True "Coffeelocks" address the first with Aspect of the Moon (or by sleeping for six hours and then deliberately breaking the Long Rest before it reaches the required 8 hours). For the second, they convert the Sorcery points to spell slots. (So I should have said arbitrarily large numbers of spell slots, rather than sorcery points.)

Edit: although the optional rules for exhaustion in XGTE hinge on long rests, instead of sleep, so they would shut down the traditional Coffeelock. On the other hand, using those optional rules is extremely punitive, since avoiding potential exhaustion requires starting a long rest exactly 16 hours after the previous one ended. You can't start one sooner (because it's forbidden by the 1 long rest per 24 hours maximum) and you can't start one later (or else you won't finish the long rest before the optional rule triggers and requires a save to avoid exhaustion).

 

[Flamestrike]

I posted my stats earlier. This is not right. My stats are:

S8
D15+2=17 (18 after second chance feat)
C12
I8
W15+1=16
Ch13

You dont have a feat yet as youre a Halfling Sorcerer 1, Fighter 1, Monk 3.

On the fighter you put a bunch of stuff in there that does not fit the character.

Im just running the three characters (Fighter, Monk and Sorcerer) as BOG standard single classed PCs (a Battlemaster, an OHM and a Draconic blaster) to show how 'complex MC builds, especially ones that do so prior to 5th level) come out poorly compared to single classed PCs.

The actual chance of landing a hit against the Monk with 16 AC using patient defense and shield is only 16%, the average on the 3rd turn is only patient defense is 30% and after that it is 55%.

Dude, you have 2 spell slots PER LONG REST, and 3 Ki points per Short rest!

The Fighter PC presented is +7 to hit with his Bow, and +6 with his Sword, and can add +1d8 to hit thanks to Precise strike. In other words you're hit on 9's with the Bow, or 14's even if you use shield (and you can only do so twice), and any misses by 4 or less (so 4's base d20 roll, or 9's even with shield) are (on average) going to hit should I use precise strike (which I have 5 uses of, per short rest).

But fine. On your turn you use a Ki point and your Bonus action to Dodge, and then move on up to the Fighter and GFB.

You hit on 12's (AC 18) dealing 1d10+1d8+3 (13) damage. 45 percent of 13 damage (lets ignore crits for now) is 6 damage.

It's now my turn.

I'll shoot twice at +7 with the sword (at disadvantage because dodge and you're adjacent to me) if the lowest roll on one dice for either attack comes up 9 or more you're hit, which one of the two attacks should. I presume you'll use shield (knowing full well I have an action surge up my sleeve and 5 sup dice). Lets also presume I dont roll a 14 or more base on either attack due to disadvantage) so also I dont use precise strike. For my object interaction, I'll switch to the Sword.

I dont action surge, because your AC is currently so high, and my turn ends.

It's now your turn again. You're down 1 Ki point, and 1 of your 1st level slots. Im down 6 HP. We're toe to toe.

What do you do?

 

[Flamestrike]

To save you some time, I presume you'll do exactly the same thing again (because if you want to flurry, that's a Ki point and no Dodge, and only a minimal boost in damage, plus it likely triggers a riposte from me).

So 6 more damage to me.

I repeat the same thing I did last time as well, but for completeness, I also use a Sup dice on Precise strike (because none of my dice come up 10's due to disadvantage, but one does come up a 7; what can I say, Im rolling crap) to force you to use shield. Due to shield and you dodging, I again don't use action surge.

For my bonus action I use Second wind, and heal all damage.

It's now your turn 3. You have 1 Ki point left and are out of Spell slots, and Im down 1 Sup dice and my Second wind.

I think we can both see where this is heading next turn cant we?

 

[Flamestrike]

Seeing as we can both see you're dead on turn 3 or worst case for me turn 4 (likely costing me an action surge and 2 more sup dice), at which stage the fighter has likely taken around 6 points of damage, and has used Action surge, 3 Sup Dice and Second wind (has 2 dice left) all of which comes back on a Short rest anyway (where I can also heal that minimal damage with a single Hit dice).

Switch hitter Fighter 5 kind of owns Sorc-iter-onk, and can do it over the course of longer adventuring days, with the nova strike capabilities of 75+damage a turn that the Sorc-iter-onk simply does not have.

If I was hiring for muscle for my party, I'm hiring the Fighter. Hands down.

 

[Flamestrike]

We can move onto the single classed Sorcerer, but you're dead in 2 rounds thanks to a Fireball then a Sleep spell, regardless of what your saves are.

On turn 1 he Dodges and then quickens a Fireball.
On turn two he Firebolts you then Quickens a Sleep spell, upcast to 3rd.

You're incapable of dealing sufficient damage to him in melee to stop him before that happens (AC 20, disadvantage from Dodge, 50 or so HP)

 

[Flamestrike]

As a final word, Im not saying your 'build' sucks, just that it doesnt stack up to single classed PCs at 5th level. 5th level abilities (Stunning fist, extra attack 3rd level spells, Improved Bardic inspiration) are game changers.

I've seen it so many times at my table. Martials who MC before 5th and look on in envy at single classed martials with extra attack, or the Sorlock builds begging me for a do-over while they're stuck spamming cantrips while their single classed Warlocks and Sorcerer buddies are tossing out fireballs or hypnotic patterns and ending entire encounters before they've even started.

 

[James Gasik]

True "Coffeelocks" address the first with Aspect of the Moon (or by sleeping for six hours and then deliberately breaking the Long Rest before it reaches the required 8 hours). For the second, they convert the Sorcery points to spell slots. (So I should have said arbitrarily large numbers of spell slots, rather than sorcery points.)

Edit: although the optional rules for exhaustion in XGTE hinge on long rests, instead of sleep, so they would shut down the traditional Coffeelock. On the other hand, using those optional rules is extremely punitive, since avoiding potential exhaustion requires starting a long rest exactly 16 hours after the previous one ended. You can't start one sooner (because it's forbidden by the 1 long rest per 24 hours maximum) and you can't start one later (or else you won't finish the long rest before the optional rule triggers and requires a save to avoid exhaustion).

There's also the Cocaine Lock, which uses Restoration to remove exhaustion, getting it from 9 levels of Divine Soul Sorcerer. Money is kind of cheap in 5e, so the 100 gp diamond dust requirement might be negligible in most campaigns (I know my 11th level character could build a Scrooge McDuck style money bin and swim in their cash if they wanted to- it wasn't until I teamed up with a Cleric that had Heroes' Feast that I had a real money sink).

Grab the Catnap spell to get a short rest in 10 minutes or abuse Aspect of the Moon for more "fun".

 

[Flamestrike]

There's also the Cocaine Lock, which uses Restoration to remove exhaustion, getting it from 9 levels of Divine Soul Sorcerer. Money is kind of cheap in 5e, so the 100 gp diamond dust requirement might be negligible in most campaigns (I know my 11th level character could build a Scrooge McDuck style money bin and swim in their cash if they wanted to- it wasn't until I teamed up with a Cleric that had Heroes' Feast that I had a real money sink).

Grab the Catnap spell to get a short rest in 10 minutes or abuse Aspect of the Moon for more "fun".

Ultimately its up to the DM if you benefit from a rest, and how many you can take each day in any event really.

 

[James Gasik]

Ultimately its up to the DM if you benefit from a rest, and how many you can take each day in any event really.

Well, except with magic. You can jump into a Rope Trick, hide behind your indestructible portable bunker (sometimes called Leomund's Tiny Hut), cast your Catnap spells to short rest inside of 10 minutes, and super high level groups can just pop into an extradimensional mansion.

Yes, the DM can design adventures to try and prevent this sort of thing, or even make houserules to prevent them. But WotC is going to keep churning this stuff out, even as it's evident, from Monsters of the Multiverse, that the entire rest paradigm will eventually be flipped on it's head. What that means for each table, and for the game at large, has yet to be seen.