D&D 5E 5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Vegas Forgotten Realms 1492
Mr. Knievel did not make the 141 foot jump just before midnight. But This afternoon at 5 PM he will try again. There are no such things as daredevils in the Realms with healing in 5E.
"Bones heal, chicks dig scars, and the United States of America has the best doctor-to-daredevil ratio in the world!"
 

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As is, 5ed healing is very generous both out and in combat. Of course, in combat healing is a little bit less effective simply because combat in 5ed is against bags of hit points.

In my games, we apply no healing on rest and all natural healing cost HD. A short rest is ten minutes lines, but only two are allowed and only half your level in HD can be used on a short rest. This makes magical healing quite important.

Players now ask for healing as soon as they reach half their HP maximum as the whack a mole is totally too risky to try in my games (we use side initiative). A downed player might go down for good if not healed in time before the foes simply finish him.

Warding bond is a very often used spells. Some spectators in our Friday night dungeon are surprised at how much important the players are putting on this spell. The life cleric usually cast it on the barb/fighter with the sentinel feat and the tactic works quite fine.

Enforcing the 6 to 8 encounters per day also help with the gritty games I usually play and this makes fights actually challenging. Some players will use the dodge action whenever too low on hp and even the help action on high AC foes. One of my "not so secrets" is to avoid monotype encounters. Using casters with ranged and melee opponents works wonders as players are forced to use cover even in the back ranks. A tactic often used if no cover is available is to drop prone to have ranged attackers attack at disadvantage but it can backfire if a foe comes to melee. All in all, the few optional rules I use make for a better combat experience with combats lasting around 8 rounds in average. This makes healing in combat very important and done way before the 1hp mark is reached. The medical and Inspiring Leader feats have proven to be incredibly useful. With players often delaying the 20 in a stat in order to get one or both of these.

I also added a potion pouch box , safely holding four potions that makes potions usable as a bonus action. Healing potions are often in there with one potion of necrotic resistance. Undead with necrotic damage will heal out the necrotic damage done. And necrotic damage is applied fully even on a save. The save is ro see if the damage will reduce the target's hp until a rest is done... this makes undead a little bit more frightful.

But unmodified, healing in 5ed is best done after combat if short rests are unavailable.
 

Voadam

Legend
Of course, in combat healing is a little bit less effective simply because combat in 5ed is against bags of hit points.

I am not sure what distinction you are making here with 5e healing and bag of hit point monsters.

How do you see 4e healing as different/more effective where creatures were generally considered more than bags of hit points?
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
What I liked about 4e Healing:

Healing surges were required for almost all healing. So there was a limit to how much a person could be healed with magic, forcing people to not be reckless. Every encounter got you a certain number of heals to work with as a Leader, which granted a little bonus healing and can even be modified to grant minor tactical boosts.

These heals were ranged, so you weren't required to be a melee character to heal your party, and it was a lot easier to keep other characters in your healing range.

If things got out of hand, you could easily have a big daily team heal in reserve, like the Warlord's Stand the Fallen, which also came with a fairly hefty attack, allowing you to win faster and lose slower.

In 5e, healing just makes you lose slower, which adds to combat length, as has been previously discussed.
 

pemerton

Legend
In 5e, healing just makes you lose slower, which adds to combat length, as has been previously discussed.
A healing framework like 4e's - with PCs coming close to death, then rallying, then getting pushed hard again by their foes - is inevitably going to be longer, because it needs the "space' in which those ebbs and flows take place.

I'm guessing that's part of the reason for 5e downplaying in-combat healing.
 

A healing framework like 4e's - with PCs coming close to death, then rallying, then getting pushed hard again by their foes - is inevitably going to be longer, because it needs the "space' in which those ebbs and flows take place.

I'm guessing that's part of the reason for 5e downplaying in-combat healing.

This goes to my post above about Control + Team Monster Synergy + Battlefield Array.

4e PCs need "space" to overcome the combination of the above to rally and turn the tide. Hence, why my position that a 5e solution to this is to increase Team Monster's individual Control + Role Synergy and increase the impact of Hazards/Terrain/Battlefield Array. Incentivizing (and therefore creating) movement and control subverts the "the best status effect is death" axiom, thereby both (a) creating more dynamic combat and (b) increasing both the tactical and thematic footprint of intracombat healing/recovery.
 

I am not sure what distinction you are making here with 5e healing and bag of hit point monsters.

How do you see 4e healing as different/more effective where creatures were generally considered more than bags of hit points?
Simple. Minions in 4ed were great for cinematic narrative. We do not have these in 5ed. Minions hit as much as the main monster of the same type and level but with only one hp. Monsters in 4ed had clearly defined roles and usually more than one way to damage the players or if they had only one, they hit like a truck. The higher the level, the more the monster would have "tricks" or the more damage it would inflict and the scale at which both was increasing was on par with the players.

5ed. The main difference between high and low level is exactly the amount of HP monsters of the same type have. Yes higher CR monster hit harder, sure, but not on the curve we had seen in previous edition and character's HP scale way faster than what monster hit will inflict. Yes there are a few exceptions and guess what? These are exactly the same monsters that players have feared in all editions. The others though...

I will admit though that the addition of mythical monsters in Theros was a great inspiration.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
Simple. Minions in 4ed were great for cinematic narrative. We do not have these in 5ed. Minions hit as much as the main monster of the same type and level but with only one hp. Monsters in 4ed had clearly defined roles and usually more than one way to damage the players or if they had only one, they hit like a truck. The higher the level, the more the monster would have "tricks" or the more damage it would inflict and the scale at which both was increasing was on par with the players.

Honestly, at start I really liked the concept of minions, but as time went by, I started to hate it more and more. Basically there is no plausibility here, these are (as the rest of 4e for me) a totally artificial concept of creatures extremely dangerous (they have the same high level attacks and damage as other monsters of their kind at equivalent level) but zero durability as any hit kills them. So it's a purely technical way of constructing adversaries and encounters to that, without any in world logic, some adversaries should be prioritised by the players, and give a bit more time of efficiency for the boss. There is no "cinematics" here, just pure luck because their defenses are high enough that even a high level adventurer basically has 50% to kill one with each attack. It's totally random, pure luck and not even tactical.

As a result, you had creatures that were 30th level goblins, which would decimate any party below level 25 because of the power of their attack and defenses, but would still die in one blow. Where is the logic here ? What are these creatures, exactly, where do they come from, how do they relate to the general population of goblins ? No-one knows, they are just pawns to be pushed on a grid to occupy the adventurers for a few rounds.

5ed. The main difference between high and low level is exactly the amount of HP monsters of the same type have. Yes higher CR monster hit harder, sure, but not on the curve we had seen in previous edition and character's HP scale way faster than what monster hit will inflict. Yes there are a few exceptions and guess what? These are exactly the same monsters that players have feared in all editions. The others though...

Still, for me, 5e did it way better by making even smaller monsters relevant at higher level. I don't need to invent 20th level goblins for a horde of small goblins to be still threatening at level 20, thanks to bounded accuracy. They will still be slaughtered in droves and make players feel better (way better than minions actually, because minions generated a huge amount of frustration with their arbitrarily high level of resistance), but they are still normal goblins, not technical absurdities. And if a high level adventurer tries to kill one, he will succeed every single time, as normal, the creature will not be protected by a purely technical raise of its defenses to give it 50% to survive each round.

And that also takes care of hit points and healing, these lower level creatures deal lower damage as well, which can be dealt with much more easily at high level anyway.

I will admit though that the addition of mythical monsters in Theros was a great inspiration.

There were a number of homebrew suggestions to the same effect, with multi-part bosses or with phases, but it's good that it was made official in MooT, as it's a really nice way of creating monsters with varying abilities and which tell a story. It also allows a DM to emulate 4e monsters with the equivalent of a "bloodied" condition, which, although artificial again, had the advantage of being able to models some interesting behaviours commonly found in genre adversaries. Actually the mythical monsters allows greater flexibility as you can create as many phases as you want, and because the number of HPs do not have to be the same, you avoid the metagaming of the 50% hp that some players clearly used in 4e.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Just to interject, minions didn't do the same damage as full creatures.

EDIT: as an example, opening up my copy of Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale, I see that a Fell Court Underboss (level 3 Leader) does 1d10+6 damage, and a Fell Court Creep (Level 3 Minion Skirmisher) does 5 damage.

And really, at a certain point, shouldn't regular goblins be able to be dispatched in one hit?

Maybe because I'm old, I never had a problem with minions- when I started playing the game, Kobolds had 1-4 hit points, and Fighters got 1 attack per level against such creatures, so I never had an expectation that a horde of them would remain dangerous at higher levels.

If anything, the fact that you stopped encountering weaker creatures at a certain point was the weird thing to me in those days.

Now, if you want to keep using goblins, kobolds, or what have you at higher levels, and make them credible threats, sure, making level 20 goblins might seem odd. But at the same time, keeping Goblins relevant threats to level 20 characters seems just as odd- these are characters capable of tangling with ancient dragons, powerful extraplanar beings, and liches- shouldn't they be above goblins at that point?
 

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