D&D 5E (2014) What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[SkidAce]

Make casters level/gain exp slower.

Solved.


But here's the interesting thing, all the stuff that "balanced" casters got removed over the years/editions.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Level 5, he gets extra attack. Full casters get 3rd level spells. Ok.

and cantrip damage scales... so where I swing my longsword twice each for 1d8+3 (so 2d8+6 15ish damage) your firebolt is now 2d10 (11) or your cantrip with a rider is 2d8+effect (9) so even then where the fighter is a little ahead on damage (as long as the caster isn't a warlock) even at will the caster is keeping up mostly...

level 11, yeah baby, Extra Attack x 2! And 6th level spells.

cantrip scale again... 3d10 (or 3d12 death toll) or 2d8/6+ effect... or worse case 3 attacks at 1d10+cha mod compaired to 1w+str mod 3 attacks

17th level this happens again.

justt taking firebolt (the most resisted damage even) and most fights that the wizard used 0 spell slots they will be throwing 1d10/2d10/3d10/4d10 by tier with a to hit ratio similar to the fighter or rogue... that fighter will have 1w+st with 1 attack per d of the cantrip (again scaled by tier) but need more to hit rolls so more chance to crit but more chance to miss...

giving the two the same % of hit and doing DPR lets say they both need 13s to hit (not unreasnable) so 13,14,15,16,17,18,19 are normal hits 20 is a crit. so 35% normal hit 5% crit

we will give fighter A a longsword and fighter B a greatsword.
level 1
fighter A 7 average damage 12 crit 3.05
Fighter B 10 average damage 17 crit 4.35
Wizard 5.5 average damage 11 crit 2.475

level 11
fighter A 9 average damage 14 crit (3 attacks) 3.85 per attack 11.55
Fighter B 12 average damage 19 crit (3 attacks) 5.15 per attack 15.45
Wizard 11 average damage 22 crit 4.95 per attack

so the best you can hope for in the field you excel most in is if the wizard holds back his 6th 5th 4th 3rd 2nd and 1st level slots is doing about 3x his damage... of course some wizard spells are still SoD/SoS and some just completly alter reality to your benfit... but hey at will you can slightly out damage them

 

[James Gasik]

Make casters level/gain exp slower.

Solved.


But here's the interesting thing, all the stuff that "balanced" casters got removed over the years/editions.

While that could solve the issue, what do you do when the Martials hit level cap, but the casters are still a level or two behind? Just end the game there? Haha, no capstones for you, you got 9th level spells, that's all you need?

Or let the martials sit around while the casters catch up to gain powers they probably don't need in the first place?

(Or I guess you could end the game the instant the Rogue hits 20th, but at that point, this isn't a better solution than E6).

 

[James Gasik]

and cantrip damage scales... so where I swing my longsword twice each for 1d8+3 (so 2d8+6 15ish damage) your firebolt is now 2d10 (11) or your cantrip with a rider is 2d8+effect (9) so even then where the fighter is a little ahead on damage (as long as the caster isn't a warlock) even at will the caster is keeping up mostly...

cantrip scale again... 3d10 (or 3d12 death toll) or 2d8/6+ effect... or worse case 3 attacks at 1d10+cha mod compaired to 1w+str mod 3 attacks

17th level this happens again.

justt taking firebolt (the most resisted damage even) and most fights that the wizard used 0 spell slots they will be throwing 1d10/2d10/3d10/4d10 by tier with a to hit ratio similar to the fighter or rogue... that fighter will have 1w+st with 1 attack per d of the cantrip (again scaled by tier) but need more to hit rolls so more chance to crit but more chance to miss...

giving the two the same % of hit and doing DPR lets say they both need 13s to hit (not unreasnable) so 13,14,15,16,17,18,19 are normal hits 20 is a crit. so 35% normal hit 5% crit

we will give fighter A a longsword and fighter B a greatsword.
level 1
fighter A 7 average damage 12 crit 3.05
Fighter B 10 average damage 17 crit 4.35
Wizard 5.5 average damage 11 crit 2.475

level 11
fighter A 9 average damage 14 crit (3 attacks) 3.85 per attack 11.55
Fighter B 12 average damage 19 crit (3 attacks) 5.15 per attack 15.45
Wizard 11 average damage 22 crit 4.95 per attack

so the best you can hope for in the field you excel most in is if the wizard holds back his 6th 5th 4th 3rd 2nd and 1st level slots is doing about 3x his damage... of course some wizard spells are still SoD/SoS and some just completly alter reality to your benfit... but hey at will you can slightly out damage them

Like I said, I wasn't even getting into the actual power of spells. Just comparing the rate the classes get interesting new abilities.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Make casters level/gain exp slower.

Solved.


But here's the interesting thing, all the stuff that "balanced" casters got removed over the years/editions.

While that could solve the issue, what do you do when the Martials hit level cap, but the casters are still a level or two behind? Just end the game there? Haha, no capstones for you, you got 9th level spells, that's all you need?

Or let the martials sit around while the casters catch up to gain powers they probably don't need in the first place?

(Or I guess you could end the game the instant the Rogue hits 20th, but at that point, this isn't a better solution than E6).

here are some charts

AD&D Level Averages

in general cleric and thief were the easiest to level to 20 and wizard the hardest by numbers.

in my personal experence (we kept our own xp after a while) thief or multclass X/Thief (if DMs let us just split xp) got xp per gp stolen so they would just try to do stupid things to steal stuff worth alot to level.

 

[SkidAce]

While that could solve the issue, what do you do when the Martials hit level cap, but the casters are still a level or two behind? Just end the game there? Haha, no capstones for you, you got 9th level spells, that's all you need?

Or let the martials sit around while the casters catch up to gain powers they probably don't need in the first place?

(Or I guess you could end the game the instant the Rogue hits 20th, but at that point, this isn't a better solution than E6).

Well they say the majority of games dont go that high, it would work for quite a while.

But it was more of a rhetorical solution, for thinking about the big picture.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Slowing advancement would 1) just kill casters way more easily, and 2) require using XP again.

 

[James Gasik]

here are some charts

AD&D Level Averages

in general cleric and thief were the easiest to level to 20 and wizard the hardest by numbers.

in my personal experence (we kept our own xp after a while) thief or multclass X/Thief (if DMs let us just split xp) got xp per gp stolen so they would just try to do stupid things to steal stuff worth alot to level.

Oh yeah, but I mean, being a few levels higher didn't do those classes much good after awhile. I think just about every Thief had all the Thieving Abilities they cared to use at 95% at max level, so what did they have to look forward to? More Backstab multipliers?

Clerics stop getting new spell levels after 7th, so unless you were a Specialty Priest, that stopped mattering.

Better to be a multiclassed character, where you're generally 1 level lower than a single classed character but have more options to work with.

 

[James Gasik]

Well they say the majority of games dont go that high, it would work for quite a while.

But it was more of a rhetorical solution, for thinking about the big picture.

Fair enough. See, I was happy to see all classes advance the same way, until I realized WotC was incapable of balancing the classes against each other. Except in that one edition that we shouldn't talk about.

How WotC can't go "hrm, so to have Thieves advance at 60% speed, we need to make Rogues 40% better" is beyond me.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Understandable. If you ever take a break from DW, I couldn't suggest 13A more strongly.

Yeah it's definitely a tossup between that (which has some incredible design elements) and 4e (which is probably the system I am most mechanically well-versed with, other than DW I suppose).

I have a whole set of custom Icons and a proto-setting for exploring. Essentially a blend of one part PoLand, one part Dragon Empire proper, and two parts post-post apocalypse, where society is finally beginning to rebuild after the Age of Ice and Darkness.

In (relative) brief, the long-lost Golden Age was more or less classic 13th Age present day, but with the war between Arkhosia and Bael Turath in full swing--no phone, not Bagel Turath for God's sake! Anyway, BT kept itself safe with a huge navy because the two empires were on opposite continents, but then a freak storm destroyed a large portion of that navy and the opportunity was too good for Arkhosia to pass up. In desperation the Turathi leadership turned to a MASSIVE blood magic ritual, sacrificing millions of slaves to make a pact that would let bazillions of devils into the world. Unfortunately, it worked, and devils quickly began to overrun the whole planet, and the Turathi themselves were also attacked when some of them objected to their nonhuman/nontiefling friends and relatives being dismembered. The icons collectively cast a spell devised by the GGW and the Lich King that would protect the world from planar influence, but this also cut off almost all the light of the sun, causing the world to slowly freeze and die. The Lich King was completely consumed in the casting of the spell, but some say his dark essence was transformed rather than destroyed. Eventually, the GGW got real goddamn tired of the other Icons bickering and failing to DO anything to save the world from extinction, so he intentionally broke the spell, girded himself with the released energies, and filled the "hole" into hell with his own metaphysical form. That was a few centuries ago and society has just barely started to return to what it was. The Emperor is long dead, but his power lives on in softer, economic, persuasive power in the form of the Courtesan (though some think she aims to form a new Empire someday), in part helped by the newest Storm Captain, as his pirate thalassocracy now favors positive relations with the trade league that she rules from the shadows. Much of the world is still uncharted and there are many ruins and tombs from the days of darkness when the only livable places were those that could rely on an Icon to help them survive. Other Icons both eldritch and much more human have taken the places of the old ones, some familiar, some different.

More or less the idea is to explore a "points of light" setting from the opposite direction: not "small lights about ready to drown in a sea of encroaching darkness," but rather "small lights about ready to burst into a world where the dark has grown old and complacent." With a side helping of explaining why the world is so full of un-looted tombs and forgotten fortresses and somehow both mapped and unknown at the same time.