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D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

Notably, there has never been a fight between those two while both were in character.

The magic that gets Superman to fight Batman is Bad Writing.
yes... same with most contrive hero v hero (not all but most)

infact I have to call out that in the current cross over in Bat books we have a uniqe for today situation...

1 person was accused of something real bad they didn't do...and they are not the type to lie especailly to down play what they did. by the 3rd or 4th part of the cross over they have told multi people (even if not the one who needs to hear it)... It is a great example of "One conversation could end this" turning into "Oh the writer thought that through this time"
 

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IIRC @Lanefan said they would prefer nerfing the most powerful characters towards the middle as well as buffing the weakest characters towards the middle. People bring their caster/martial traumas into this and project positions unto other posters.
I would be cool with it...

bring everyones HP down. lower spell casting (or make it less reliable) and buff the noncasters
 

It might be worth noting that RIFTS, the poster child for imbalance, where you could play a dragon or a hobo, has a pretty sweet spot in the Savage Worlds edition, where the mundanes basically start at 11th level, and every level is essentially the same amount of xp, so they're always ahead. A friend made a vagabond who was carrying a dragon egg, and played it until he wanted the egg to hatch and take over playing the dragon, and felt like the vagabond may have been more powerful. What a time to be alive!

"Mundanes" also get cyberware, which inflicts penalties on casting rolls, adds a lot of oomph. D&D could play with it's attunement process to achieve something similar, but that would require actually giving some measure of control over equipment to the players again so that the attunement cap is actually meaningful. Let casters attune 1 item, half casters 3, martials unlimited. Greatly expand the benefits of attunement. Let martials make magic items, or simply have the items become magical because individuals of power wield them. You hear tales of "this was the blade of Thongor the Mighty that slew 40 men at the battle of Haknslash!", not "Nerdlinger Maximus sat in a tower for 2 weeks and made this sword they would never use".
 

Oh. My. God., Every. Single. Time. You'd think 'his strength has no upper limit' was some magical rhetorical I-win button. Even forgetting that Strength =/= winning in all situations, a lack of an upward boundary means nothing until/unless you're at the point of crossing where that boundary might otherwise be. If a fight ends before his anger reaches that point (let's say he's fighting Lex Lullaby, or the Beige Brawler, or Mr. Milquetoast), it is a completely meaningless factor.
It's almost as if it is always a meaningless factor because the writers can do what they want.

Hulk strongest there is, but Hulk not fastest, smartest, most creative, prettiest, or most important Writer's Pet.

Which is why Batman will win every time unless they need him to die for a few months to drive sales.
 

It might be worth noting that RIFTS, the poster child for imbalance, where you could play a dragon or a hobo, has a pretty sweet spot in the Savage Worlds edition, where the mundanes basically start at 11th level, and every level is essentially the same amount of xp, so they're always ahead. A friend made a vagabond who was carrying a dragon egg, and played it until he wanted the egg to hatch and take over playing the dragon, and felt like the vagabond may have been more powerful. What a time to be alive!
I loved RIFTS... I still love the world. I have all the savage world books but am yet to be able to get a group to play it... I am glad it is as good as I imagined.
"Mundanes" also get cyberware, which inflicts penalties on casting rolls, adds a lot of oomph. D&D could play with it's attunement process to achieve something similar, but that would require actually giving some measure of control over equipment to the players again so that the attunement cap is actually meaningful. Let casters attune 1 item, half casters 3, martials unlimited. Greatly expand the benefits of attunement. Let martials make magic items, or simply have the items become magical because individuals of power wield them. You hear tales of "this was the blade of Thongor the Mighty that slew 40 men at the battle of Haknslash!", not "Nerdlinger Maximus sat in a tower for 2 weeks and made this sword they would never use".
yeah I love that idea...
 

I think one problem with casters vs. non-casters is what I call "blah levels" (I don't like the term dead levels, but if you prefer, use that instead). You go up a level and...not much happens of note other than hit points increasing.

Now, ever since, I don't know, the dawn of time, full casters get new spell levels to access every odd level (until, weirdly 19th). So no matter what happens, every off level you get a new plateau of power.

Now let's look at the Fighter. It sure looks like he gets something cool at every level, doesn't he? (or she, or it, not being genderist here).

But let's take a deeper look. Well at level 3, he's just getting his subclass abilities. Some casters already had theirs, and they're getting 2nd level spells.

Level 4, he gets nothing nobody else gets. Skip.

Level 5, he gets extra attack. Full casters get 3rd level spells. Ok.

Level 6, hey, I got an ASI! Woot!

Level 7, hit the subclass train again...of course, the Wizard got his last level and now he gets 4th level spells...

Level 8, ASI for all. Skip.

Level 9, uh...once per day reroll on a save vs. 5th level spells? Hold on...

Level 10, subclass train! Oh for the Wizard too.

Level 11, yeah baby, Extra Attack x 2! And 6th level spells.

Level 12, ASI for all. Skip.

Level 13, Indomitable x 2 vs. 7th level spells. You have GOT to be kidding me.

Level 14, bonus ASI! Wizard gets subclass feature.

Level 15, subclass train, whoo whoo! 8th level spells.

Level 16, ASI for all. Skip.

Level 17, Action Surge x 2, now that's sweet! Indomitable x 3...ehh... Meanwhile, 9th level spells. Doesn't seem equal to me. You can Wish the whole party has resistance to a damage type, I get an extra action per short rest and a reroll.

Level 18, Subclass Train. Wizard gets two low levels spells he can spam like cantrips!

Level 19, ASI's for all. No new spells for you, Wizzo!

Level 20, Extra Attack x 3 is sweet! And all the Wizard gets is 2 bonus 3rd level spells per day? Finally, got one over on him! Oh wait...the game is over now?

At the very least, odd numbered levels are exciting for full castes AND they get other toys.

Non-casters get far fewer exciting levels. Even without taking relative power into account, why is that? And is there any excuse for Indomitable being so terrible?

You might say "well, rerolling a failed save can be amazing!" and I'm like, I guess so? Of course, when Wizards wants to write things like Silvery Barbs, how amazing is that again? Plus, let's not forget, that without supernatural assistance, Fighters only have, at best, 3 decent saves anyways. Rerolling a save that only succeeds on an 18-20 isn't great. The Fighter should be receiving bonus Resilient at these levels, not a darned reroll!
 

It's almost as if it is always a meaningless factor because the writers can do what they want.

Hulk strongest there is, but Hulk not fastest, smartest, most creative, prettiest, or most important Writer's Pet.

Which is why Batman will win every time unless they need him to die for a few months to drive sales.
it's almost like these modern mythic heroes (comic book characters) like classic myths and our characters in the games... are just action power fantasies where we get to play/live through/read/watch something far beyond normal...
 

it's almost like these modern mythic heroes (comic book characters) like classic myths and our characters in the games... are just action power fantasies where we get to play/live through/read/watch something far beyond normal...
Unless you're a D&D Martial. Then you lift moderate weights, swing a sharp or blunt object, and you better be satisfied with that, bucko, because anything else is Dangerous Power Creep.
 


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