D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[James Gasik]

While I like that Fighters get a move like this, my immediate question is why can't everyone at least try it?

In 1e D&D every character of any class gets a (generally quite low) bars-gates % chance based solely on Strength. What would work there for making it more a Fighter-specific ability is to, say, give Fighters a -30 boost to their percent roll (low is better here) as a class feature - that way, everyone still has a chance but Fighters are better at it.

On a broader note, silo-ing specific abiities like this into classes is fine but making those abiities absolutely exclusive to those classes isn't, where the ability is something that any Joe or Jane could in theory at least have a small chance of doing.

Well there was that time when we had a class with 10 such abilities that, because they had access to them, nobody else could attempt those tasks...what was it again, did it start with an R or a T?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

While I like that Fighters get a move like this, my immediate question is why can't everyone at least try it?

In 1e D&D every character of any class gets a (generally quite low) bars-gates % chance based solely on Strength. What would work there for making it more a Fighter-specific ability is to, say, give Fighters a -30 boost to their percent roll (low is better here) as a class feature - that way, everyone still has a chance but Fighters are better at it.

On a broader note, silo-ing specific abiities like this into classes is fine but making those abiities absolutely exclusive to those classes isn't, where the ability is something that any Joe or Jane could in theory at least have a small chance of doing.

If their training is just a town guard with slightly bigger numbers, I don't think they should be a PC class. Leave fighters as Tasha's sidekicks, alongside a half caster mage, and call it a day. Ars Magica did that with grogs.

Make a real martial hero, who actually can do things a wizard can't. If you want to play wand caddy, play the sidekick version. But stop insisting everyone else play a lame fighter.

 

[Composer99]

To my mind, a game is balanced when any two characters made and played by players with roughly the same level of overall skill will contribute about equally to the table's gameplay experience in any given pillar/aspect of gameplay that both players are similarly interested in engaging with over the course of a reasonably long period of time - you need the latter to average out the effects of chance and of circumstance.

If, say, you have a druid and a fighter, if both players are interested in combat to the same extent, both classes should allow them to contribute at about the same level of effectiveness over the course of several sessions; that should likewise be the case if both players are interested to the same extent in out-of-combat exploration or social interaction. They don't have to contribute in identical fashion, of course - if anything, you want the fighter to contribute in ways that are both generic and "fighter-y" and the druid to contribute in ways that are both generic and "druid-y", but if there's a real discrepancy in how the two characters end up contributing to the game over some span of multiple sessions, it ought IMO to come down to a difference in player skill or in player interest/engagement, rather than the classes' design.

 

[Maxperson]

I guess you could save for hold monster or disentagrate... but legend lore auto works so too does planar binding and teleport circle...

I don't recall killing creatures with Legend Lore or Teleportation Circle, but yes, you can do combat OR a bunch of shenanigans, not both. And good luck asking the creature you are fighting to sit there for an hour in order to be bound by Planar Binding. I'm also wondering how Planar Binding out works. I see a charisma save is involved.

then again cone of cold and fireball each throw 8 dice of damage and the save is only for half...

Sure. A saved Fireball does 14 points of damage on average, 7 if the creature is resistant. Cone of Cold isn't much better. 20 average on a save, 10 on a save if resistant. For those spells to shine, you have to have a clumped group that isn't in combat with anyone from the party.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

If, say, you have a druid and a fighter, if both players are interested in combat to the same extent, both classes should allow them to contribute at about the same level of effectiveness over the course of several sessions; that should likewise be the case if both players are interested to the same extent in out-of-combat exploration or social interaction. They don't have to contribute in identical fashion, of course - if anything, you want the fighter to contribute in ways that are both generic and "fighter-y" and the druid to contribute in ways that are both generic and "druid-y", but if there's a real discrepancy in how the two characters end up contributing to the game over some span of multiple sessions, it ought IMO to come down to a difference in player skill or in player interest/engagement, rather than the classes' design.

How do you account for the fact that the druid gets to repick their superpowers after a nap, while the fighter is locked in do his weak little ribbons? If anyone contributes as much as a fighter in a fight then balance has already been lost, because the fighter isnt contributing as much outside of a fight. The fighter has virtually nothing that is class based, and anyone can RP and make plans. So any contribution that isn't part of the class chassis can be done just as well, if not better, by the character that gets to violate the laws of reality more often than they poop.

If spells of level 3+ took several actions to cast we might be getting somewhere. IMO, caster combat contribution needs to go down a decent amount, and non-caster out of combat contribution needs to go significantly up.

 

[Lanefan]

Well there was that time when we had a class with 10 such abilities that, because they had access to them, nobody else could attempt those tasks...what was it again, did it start with an R or a T?

I've never interpreted the fact of the class having those abilities precludes anyone else from ever trying them; only that their odds of success would be much lower than those of a character who did have those class abilities.

 

[James Gasik]

I've never interpreted the fact of the class having those abilities precludes anyone else from ever trying them; only that their odds of success would be much lower than those of a character who did have those class abilities.

Which is a feeling you weren't alone in having, but the fact that we didn't have any guidelines for what those chances of success were didn't help any.

EDIT: for example, if a base level 1 Human Thief has a 5% chance to find a Trap, what should the chance for anyone else be?

 

[Lanefan]

If their training is just a town guard with slightly bigger numbers, I don't think they should be a PC class. Leave fighters as Tasha's sidekicks, alongside a half caster mage, and call it a day. Ars Magica did that with grogs.

Make a real martial hero, who actually can do things a wizard can't.

As in: wear any armour, be proficient with any weapon, be far better at hitting and hurting in-your-face foes, be tougher to kill or disable - that sort of thing?

Wizards have been made too good at melee combat over the editions, no question there; so why not dial this back (e.g. via smaller hit dice, cannot cast in melee, few or no weapon proficiencies, etc.), rather than try to boost warriors to compensate?

If you want to play wand caddy, play the sidekick version. But stop insisting everyone else play a lame fighter.

A fighter - or any character, for that matter - is only lame if you-its-player play it that way.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

@Lanefan In 5e caster weapon proficiencies don't matter, as they have access to attack cantrips. You could give the wizard proficiency in all weapons, and they still would never hit anyone with one. Even clerics are usually better off leaving the mace home and spamming attack cantrips. I'm not really a huge fan of this.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I don't recall killing creatures with Legend Lore or Teleportation Circle, but yes, you can do combat OR a bunch of shenanigans, not both.

look at that you get a choice... on top of just slightly below damage... cause casters get those choices and martials don't

And good luck asking the creature you are fighting to sit there for an hour in order to be bound by Planar Binding. I'm also wondering how Planar Binding out works. I see a charisma save is involved.

you may be right about planar binding I was thinking of useing it to call and bind an angel or demon maybe it does have a save,

Sure. A saved Fireball does 14 points of damage on average, 7 if the creature is resistant. Cone of Cold isn't much better. 20 average on a save, 10 on a save if resistant. For those spells to shine, you have to have a clumped group that isn't in combat with anyone from the party.

except you don't have to use one against a fire resistance or cold resistance you don't have to hit a single, and as AWESOME as they are when you get 3, 4 or 5+ targets in it they are better then a fighter most times you get 2 in it.... and you can with a bit of smart play target weak saves.... watch as the fighter or rouge targets.... oh yeah AC AC and AC, 9 out of 10 times the best defense.