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D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

For the 5mwd
It has been a problem since 3.xed. This is a fact and it introduced a type of gameplay that I truly despise and actively counters with all my powers as a DM. And I succeeded exactly by enforcing the amount of encounters expected in a day.
Scry and Die got to it’s height in 3e but trust me it started in second and was worse in some ways

You needed 10 minutes per spell level (so an hour and a half for a 9th level spell) to prep each spell (I want to say there was a minimum of an hour even if only preping a 1st level one but that might have been a house rule)

So not only was it better to rest often, wizards that used 2 3rd level and a 5th level spell need to rest 8 hours then prep for almost 2 more. A high level wizard could spend days repreping
 

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Scry and Die got to it’s height in 3e but trust me it started in second and was worse in some ways

You needed 10 minutes per spell level (so an hour and a half for a 9th level spell) to prep each spell (I want to say there was a minimum of an hour even if only preping a 1st level one but that might have been a house rule)

So not only was it better to rest often, wizards that used 2 3rd level and a 5th level spell need to rest 8 hours then prep for almost 2 more. A high level wizard could spend days repreping
Sounds like a pretty significant limitation to casters. In a lot of ways, caster/martial balance worked in the old days.
 

Scry and Die got to it’s height in 3e but trust me it started in second and was worse in some ways

You needed 10 minutes per spell level (so an hour and a half for a 9th level spell) to prep each spell (I want to say there was a minimum of an hour even if only preping a 1st level one but that might have been a house rule)

So not only was it better to rest often, wizards that used 2 3rd level and a 5th level spell need to rest 8 hours then prep for almost 2 more. A high level wizard could spend days repreping
207.... I will never forget 207 levels. I had run a very high level (past 20th) game and a player had to reprep 207 levels of spells or 35 hours.... but not more then 10 hours in a day... so 3 full days and half of the 4th repreping spells. Just to try to get the game going better we had to take down time LONG before running out of spells. (for somereason I don't remember our cleric needing that time though)
 


207.... I will never forget 207 levels. I had run a very high level (past 20th) game and a player had to reprep 207 levels of spells or 35 hours.... but not more then 10 hours in a day... so 3 full days and half of the 4th repreping spells. Just to try to get the game going better we had to take down time LONG before running out of spells. (for somereason I don't remember our cleric needing that time though)
I assume you used High Level Campaigns since that is more than a 20th level wizard has (maybe a specialist?) but we did and had a villain trying to turn himself into a lich and we took pride in making him retreat and take the better part of a week redoing his pyramid.
 

I assume you used High Level Campaigns since that is more than a 20th level wizard has (maybe a specialist?) but we did and had a villain trying to turn himself into a lich and we took pride in making him retreat and take the better part of a week redoing his pyramid.
I think he was a 23rd level Necromancer the first time it happened that took that long, but as early as 11th level it was a whole day or more sometimes. We had 3 casters in the party of 8 characters (6 players 2 playing 2 characters) but only 1 straight caster 'Nickodemus LeRoach the III, mystic of the seven vails and founder of the shadow academy" and yes he would introduce himself like that starting at around 7th level when he split off form the mage guild and took a single apprentice with him (another PC who had dule classed into wizard)
 

So a lot of discussions about the game come down to balance. Is it a goal? Should it not be a goal? I really hope this doesn't bog down in arguments, as all I want is opinions. I have my own feelings on the topic, which often clash with those of others. Every gamer is different and has differing desires for a game system.

I marked this as a 5e discussion since there are rumblings of changes in the game's future, but obviously, this topic is applicable to any game or gaming experience. I'll start with my personal view.

Let's compare game design to music. In the studio, bands can spend long hours, weeks, months even, searching for that elusive quality- perfection. You have a group of creative people, working together, but trying to push their vision to the forefront. The result is a mishmash of different takes, take a little bit from session A, add in a bit from session B, maybe use that awesome drum solo from session C, and sure, we can keep the xylophone bit to please our producer, but then overdub it to the point it's barely audible on the final track! If you did your job right, you have a classic on your hands.

Otherwise, it's a hot mess.

But live? On stage? It's not about perfection. It's about the moment. Connecting with your audience, and blowing them away with your passion and energy. So you're exhausted from touring. You're all out of tune. So you forgot some of the words (decades later, people will remember the time you quipped "does anybody remember laughter?" in the middle of a song). Your drummer decides this would be the perfect time for a 20 minute solo! It doesn't matter, as long as everyone leaves the auditorium energized.

Thus I feel balance is a goal at the design stage, where everything is white room simulations. Get the game running like a fine tuned machine. But be fully aware that, for the players, it's about the moment when Bob's Rogue jumps on the back of a dragon and stabs it in it's eyes! When a Wild Surge explodes in the face of your Sorceress, but takes out the BBEG (or just turns her into a tween girl). When the Barbarian rolls a 1 when trying to dive off a cliff into icy water, lands in the rocks and vanishes into the brine...only to throw a thumbs up out of the water and say "it's ok, I'm fine!" after taking 50 points of damage.

In these moments, the rules need to be able to fall away, and not interfere with the story.

But balance is important. If one class does a thing better than the other, and doesn't seem to give anything up for that privilege. When one Feat is simply better than another in every way. When two spells of the same level have wildly different strengths. That leads to questions. Is this feature too strong? Broken?

Or is the other too weak? If one player is getting too much "spotlight time", or another has an ability that trivializes challenges (be they combat or otherwise), then we switch from "balance isn't important" to "what the heck is this over/underpowered garbage doing in my game?".

Games have rules to resolve conflicts. Otherwise, it's all cops and robbers. "Bang bang, you're dead!" "No, I have armor!" "I shot you in the head!" "You missed!"

I feel we need to be able to trust these rules to function when they are needed. Not "well we didn't fully balance the game, but you can figure that out". By that same token, you could create a game where the rules work perfectly fine, and we can figure out when we can ignore them, no?

Obviously, comparing apples and oranges is impossible. We know that Fighters are supposed to be strong in combat. We know that Rogues have many more out of combat options than Fighters. So obviously, no one expects Rogues to be able to fight like Fighters. But at the same time, we don't want to get into a fight and have a Rogue stand around and plink things with arrows and try not to die! Perhaps like me, you saw way too much of that in the murky past, when Rogues were called something that started with a "T".

But the reverse is true. We don't want Fighters scratching their heads and looking dumb when the game shifts to "so we need to infiltrate the Slaver's fortress". We need a game that says "no Rogue? no problem!"

And yet...when we give ways for other classes to succeed at these tasks, we run the risk of trivializing the Rogue. Stealth mission? "Hey I can cast Pass Without Trace! or Invisibility!". Sure, those are limited resources, but it doesn't matter if, that one time the Rogue was like "alright! time for me to shine!" and another character, who already has had times to shine, comes in and steals their thunder.

A lot of this falls upon the DM/GM/ST/Judge/Referee to balance. To create scenarios where that shouldn't happen. Or hand out nerfs to abilities that are working too well/buff abilities that aren't working well enough.

The question I always have when this occurs is "did it have to be this way? Did the developer of the game think to themselves 'say, this is a really good option? too conservative?'. Or were they just tasked with creating 30 new spells to round out a new product for sale?".

And that's why I think balance is an important goal. Otherwise, you could just as easily create your own game (such as the version of D&D under construction on these very forums).
balance to me is a sliding scale that everyone views differently and it just gets in the way of fun. Even if it's balanced to you the guy playing the fighter or the wizard won't agree that it's balanced. I just try to provide the players with fun things that make them all as equally central to driving the story as they want to be.
 

Possibly. Certainly if 1) magic were the system with more rolls-for success (say, roll to cast and then roll to-hit) or had a chance of adverse effects,
In my game both of these are true. Area-effect spells need aiming rolls (and fumbles are possible!), and all kinds of effects baneful, beneficial, or just plain humourous can happen on a wild surge; a distinct possibility if a spell gets interrupted in casting.
I've found that adding numbers to both sides of the equation (PCs become tougher, but they face tougher challenges) leads to increased likelihood that failure becomes catastrophic collapse (such as TPK).
Perhaps; though here there's no numbers being added to the PCs per se, it's more that the players are just taking best advantage of what the PCs already have. Which, in the setting, is also what reasonably wise PCs would do.

And TPKs are in most situations very avoidable provided you have at least one player/PC who knows when to fold 'em and knows when to run.
Alright. Good to know. In which case, the 5MWD has been an issue you've been dealing with for many editions of the game, and you have figured out a rhythm.
I guess, if by "dealing with it" you mean largely ignoring it once I realized a few decades back that it wasn't the problem people kept telling me it was. :)
 

wait what? it's from a 5 year old book Xanathars guide
And? This is pretty late in a game. Devs learned from their past mistakes.
okay so if fighter is fine then hexblade must be so broken it got errated quick... over the last 5 years how many times has it been rolled back in power?
No need to errata it. It was balanced. Powerfull, but balanced.
I mean Str can be used for both ranged and melee attacks (Thrown weapons) so what else might it be...
How many javelin can someone carry? Not a lot. How many eldritch blasts? Unlimited. Having charisma to both attack in melee and cast spells is really powerful. It is why a lot of cleric takes shillelagh through magic initiate Druid. Attacking with wisdom makes a whole world of difference and build.
oh right it does everything a 9th level fighter can but ALSO has cantrips and 5th level spells... at least unlike cleric and bard it doesn't also have the 4th,3rd,2nd,and 1st level slots
Ho the sarcasm... ;)
 


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