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D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

Thomas Shey

Legend
Yes here is the opening to the essay:

And the bit about fudging (emphasis added):

Oh, yes, GDS Sim absolutely does not want any dirty metagame influence in its purist form; though it will grudgingly accept a bit of it under some circumstances, only to patch limitations in the game system or input data it has (going back and rolling back an event because its realized it was not possible with the other information already at hand). Dramatists considered it one of their necessary tools, and Gamists it varied as to how they percieved it (I think Gleichman found it offputting because it felt too much like a thumb-on-the-scale of success, while I always thought as long as it was baked into the mechanics it was just part of the Game structure. I don't recall if Brad Szonze had a position on it, and if so what it was, and the three of use were the only consistent Gamism proponents in the group for any period).

I thought your original post referenced Dramatism, not Sim, though, which may make my response seem nonsensical.
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
Regarding simulationsim and fudging:

I mean I don't really see why you would fudge if your main concern was simulationism. If you wanted to simulate thing and were confident that your system properly simulates the thing, then any fudging would just make the simulation less accurate. Only simulationism motivated reason for fudging would be if the system was bad at simulating the thing and you'd need human interference to 'correct' it.

You've pretty much hit in one. Process failures.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Regarding simulationsim and fudging:

I mean I don't really see why you would fudge if your main concern was simulationism. If you wanted to simulate thing and were confident that your system properly simulates the thing, then any fudging would just make the simulation less accurate. Only simulationism motivated reason for fudging would be if the system was bad at simulating the thing and you'd need human interference to 'correct' it.
You confuse agenda for playing a game that supports the agenda well. That assumption seems flawed. 5e supports high-concept sim precisely because it offloaded so much onto GM Says and the culture tends to embrace fudging.
 


Thomas Shey

Legend
I don't consider it trivial. The players are quite likely supporters of the arrangement, and doing their best to preserve the right feel and story beats from their end.

You misunderstand; note you're talking about feel and story beats. Note I mentioned "world integrity". High genre settings don't have that. They really can't, because they deliberately avoid taking a number of elements to their logical conclusion (because if they did, it wouldn't look much like that genre). That's what makes genre emulation (again, and I repeat this to make the distinction clear, outside of genres that lack conventions other than of time/place and event focus) actively hostile to traditional GDS Sim. They aren't talking about anything resembling the same thing.

(You can, of course, get into the weeds of general usage of "Simulation" here, but its a term-of-art for either model; the difference is that one is very much about world integrity that denies purely dramatic conceits while the other is utterly dependent on them to look as they do).
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
AGENDAS:

Make Apocalypse World seem real

It’s in the details. It’s how you describe things, tastes, smells, sights, sounds, and touches. It’s making sure that, within the framework of the setting, there’s verisimilitude, that everything holds together and rings true. With this kind of game, you want players to go home thinking about it, to have the game have had an impact on them. They need to feel it.

Make the player characters’ lives not boring
If their lives are boring, why not do something else with your time? This is interactive fiction. When we go to a type of fiction for an escape or enjoyment, we don’t usually want to see boring, dull things happen to our characters. We want to see them in situations they might not be able to handle, being challenged, confronted, and pushed. Do that here.

Play to find out what happens
This is the big one, for me. This is what this game is all about. This is the thing that I want to see surge into other games where the GM is traditionally encouraged to prep a ton of material beforehand, to tell their story, rather than the story of the characters. If you’re doing this correctly, you’re going to end up with questions about things. What happens if Cutter doesn’t give Bolt-Head what she wants? Who will fill the power vacuum left after Sadie killed Dog Head? This is a space where this game demands you don’t answer that question away from the table. You come to the session with the question in mind and the play at the table determines the answer. It’s different for a lot of people, and it’s very satisfying.

Here the second two principles are about decision making and eschew internal cause, so not sim. You seem to be confusing flavor with focus on internal cause.

PRINCIPLES:

  • Barf forth apocalyptica.
  • Address yourself to the characters, not the players.
  • Make your move, but misdirect.
  • Make your move, but never speak its name.
  • Look through cross-hairs.
  • Name everyone, make everyone human.
  • Ask provocative questions and build on the answers.
  • Respond with f---ery and intermittent rewards.
  • Be a fan of the players’ characters.
  • Think off-screen too.
  • Sometimes, disclaim decision-making.

Emphasis added to Principles -- the bolded ones are distinction not about simulationism, and engaging them directly counters simulationism because they are directing you to not engage in internal cause decision making.
 

soviet

Hero
You misunderstand; note you're talking about feel and story beats. Note I mentioned "world integrity". High genre settings don't have that. They really can't, because they deliberately avoid taking a number of elements to their logical conclusion (because if they did, it wouldn't look much like that genre). That's what makes genre emulation (again, and I repeat this to make the distinction clear, outside of genres that lack conventions other than of time/place and event focus) actively hostile to traditional GDS Sim. They aren't talking about anything resembling the same thing.

(You can, of course, get into the weeds of general usage of "Simulation" here, but its a term-of-art for either model; the difference is that one is very much about world integrity that denies purely dramatic conceits while the other is utterly dependent on them to look as they do).
Looks like we got our wires crossed somewhere then, sorry about that. I've never once been talking about GDS Sim.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Hammer was only to attempt to find a simplifying analogy. It was by no means intended to be the final and complete statement as to the sort of tool I intended. I like your thought about abstract tools, I just hoped to narrow it more.
Ah. In that case...well, "game" covers a hell of a lot of things, doesn't it? Hangman is a game. Riddle-guessing is a game. 52-pickup is a game. Solitaire is a game. Tag. Duck-duck-goose. Capture the flag. Every single video game and computer game ever made, including things as divergent as DOOM and Dear Esther. I could go on, but the point: these tools seem to be designed with an enormous variety of purposes in mind. And, for many of them, different people will engage with them for different reasons. I don't generally play shooters, because I don't derive enjoyment from most games of that kind, but DOOM 2016 was a phenomenon and, I gotta say, even as a casual not-much-for-shooters guy, I liked it. One of the things I was really surprised about with it, though, was the degree to which it used subtle things to tell a story. The Doom Marine in that game has more personality than some fully-voiced JRPG protagonists, purely through first-person camera movement and hand gestures. That's damned impressive.

Going back to the abstract tools thing, I used mathematics for a reason. Math has branches; "game" seems to have branches too, things like computer games (an application of programming, visual design, etc.), board games (involving physical materials that are irrelevant with nearly all computer games), word games (which often have informal rules and favor aesthetics over all other considerations), playground games (often employing physical motion and diagrams), sports (a HUGE category all unto itself), etc. "Game," in the abstract, refers to an enormous family of things, and distant families may have almost nothing in common (e.g. playground games and computer games), yet they're all still "games."

If you'd like an example of something I think would be analogous to TTRPGs specifically, then something like "statistics" comes to mind. It has an over-arching character or nature, something that refines it down from the extreme abstraction of "mathematics" in general. But within statistics there are still a number of disciplines; they share some techniques in common, but descriptive, inferential, theoretical, and applied statistics are all distinct focuses within that wider umbrella. One can then use these more specific tools for various motives, e.g. scientific experiments, census and survey collection, data-mining, forensic accounting, gambling, etc. Asking, "what is the purpose of statistics?" is asking about what direct activities it is designed or intended to perform; it is a question about what its makers (or, I guess, "founders") wanted or sought. It has no specific relationship to asking why someone would feel motivated to apply statistics to their particular situation.

Is the thought here that a roleplaying game is a neutral vehicle for play (we can write anything with a pen)?
Well, sort of. The pen in the abstract can do anything. But we do have specialized pens, for specialized uses, yes? That's more or less what I'm driving at, but for RPGs. E.g., calligraphy pens are generally shaped differently, because they are specialized for the purpose of producing artistic flourishes. Ballpoint pens are specialized for workhorse tasks, and are generally low-cost. Sharpies are widely used for labelling things, especially boxes. Dry erase markers are especially specialized, but incredibly useful in their narrow area of focus. Etc. The analogy, then, is that "pen" is an umbrella, which contains more specialized categories inside it, and within those categories there may be identifiable attributes, the design goals we can identify in those pens, and then (hopefully) generalize to other, similar pens, e.g. dry erase markers have many similarities to permanent markers, but the two absolutely should not be used in the same ways because of their critical design differences.

But none of those design differences need be inherently determinative of what reason or reason(s) a person might use a pen. Ballpoint pens, dry-erase markers, and permanent markers are all used extensively for the purpose of education, and yet an analysis of the design and purpose of the pen will tell you diddly-squat about education or why people would want to educate using them, other than the generic (and rather useless) "they're used to draw or write, and drawing and writing can be useful for education."

But far more importantly, is there a way to reword your question to more crisply disambiguate between
  • What purposes are there for roleplaying games?
  • Why do people choose to use roleplaying games?
If roleplaying game is correctly inserted that way?
My interest, with my model, is the former. What are roleplaying games designed to pursue, or perhaps what can we identify as designed pursuits? Going back to the "statistics" example above, it's sort of like asking what the subfields of "statistics" are. Those subfields may have specific relationships with other things, e.g. theoretical statistics is usually not very useful outside of math itself, so it will not very often have people feel motivated to use it, whereas inferential statistics is incredibly useful in nearly all fields (because, y'know, science) and is thus something many, many people are motivated to use for whatever ends they're pursuing.

To rephrase the two questions, then, would look something like...
  • What things have designers made roleplaying games to do? Are there things that they could be made to do, but haven't?
  • Why do people choose to play any given roleplaying game? Are there player interests that could be met, but haven't been?
The former is a question of what things the game is made for doing. The latter is, more or less, what players get out of playing it, what they find worthwhile in playing. Naturally, there should be relationships between these things. But the answers to the former should be different from the answers to the latter.
 

Good point! It would be easy to dodge in a scene by saying "Well that isn't one of my values any more."

I'll freely admit I wasn't thinking of that, but it's a good thing I only said "establish a new dramatic need in the middle of a scene". :)

Now you've got me thinking about how & why some games put limits on how many dramatic needs you can have....
For the sake of clearly drawn characters. Its an RPG, and a pastime that most people will indulge in a fairly periodic way. One of the whole points of having various traits of a character is in order to clearly define them. 100 character traits is just unwieldy and probably contradictory and doesn't draw a clear picture of the character. When you sit down to play, you will have a hard time reinhabiting that character. If you only have to deal with Cowardly, Elder Race, and Cares about his sister, that's still pretty darn clear, especially coupled with a bit of history of playing the character, and you can reliably assume that role.
 

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