D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

The problem comes up when you try to talk about secondary functions in D&D which seem ad-hoc Dramatist to a GDS proponent, and if I'm now understanding correctly the GNS categories, don't seem to fit into it anywhere as best I can tell (because if I'm not misunderstanding Story-seeking that is not Story Now is not consider virtuous in the model, well, anywhere (either that or its again being shoved into Sim because apparently the bucket at the bottom that catches anything that doesn't obviously land anywhere else)).
There are dozens of posts in this thread explaining why the "secondary functions" of D&D (which I'm inclined to think are the primary functions of 5e D&D) are high-concept simulationist.

The fact that you don't particularly care for the terminology doesn't mean that the analysis can't (and hasn't) been undertaken.
 

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if simulationism "indicates an attempt to evoke, within the experience of playing the game, some specific effect or aspect," like the post I quoted says, then pretty much every RPG is that. Can't you claim that for example Apocalypse World isn't doing that? That is is not trying to evoke a certain vision of an apocalyptic world?
Not as the fundamental goal of play though. It's certainly not built to engender that as the top priority in its players.
How would it look different if it was?
@Ovinomancer gave an answer to this. What I'll add is that the expectations of play, and the principles that help establish those expectations, and that set out how authorities are to be exercised, would be focused on evoking and reinforcing a certain sort of fiction. Techniques - be they mechanical or otherwise - would be included to help make sure that the desired exploration is prioritised. The injection of other concerns by the participants would be discouraged.

In the context of AW, this would probably mean rules around scarcity of resources (especially petrol), rules for encountering hazardous wastelands and their mutant inhabitants, etc. There would be no expectation that the obstacles a character faces are reflective of the thematic and dramatic trajectory of play; rather, these would be established by reference to maps and tables, and what makes for a cool "apocalypse world". A fairly standard approach to Dark Sun play illustrates the idea.

I am reading Threefold Simulationism Explained and it makes a pointed comment that one does not fudge results for story when doing (GDS) Simulation.
I think this is because 3fold simulationism roughly overlaps with Edwards's purist-for-system.

It is not located within a broader conception of exploration for its own sake. Thus it lacks the resources to (eg) answer @Crimson Longinus's question about Apocalypse World and genre.

It's the role of the GM. High concept sim generally requires a strong GM oversight including fudging and overt scene framing to reinforce the genre and make everything feel 'right'. Narr requires a more permissive GM role constrained by rules and transparency expressly in order to avoid that oversight and instead allow play to be driven by the players. Sim is prepared to sacrifice freedom for consistency because the emulation is the point; narr is prepared to sacrifice consistency for freedom because the protagonism is the point.
It's almost like the principles and expectations that will govern the use of authority is fundamental! If only someone had posted that back on page 10 of the thread (Oh wait . . .)
 

Regarding simulationsim and fudging:

I mean I don't really see why you would fudge if your main concern was simulationism. If you wanted to simulate thing and were confident that your system properly simulates the thing, then any fudging would just make the simulation less accurate. Only simulationism motivated reason for fudging would be if the system was bad at simulating the thing and you'd need human interference to 'correct' it.
What RPG are you using? Probably the most popular vehicle for high concept sim RPGing, at the time Edwards starting writing on GNS, was 2nd ed AD&D. The obvious competitor for that title was V:tM.

Neither has anything in its mechanics to ensure genre conformity. They rely on GM curation, which happens mostly by introducing new content into the fiction, but sometimes requires blocking the content that a die roll would seem to mandate (ie fudging).

In the intervening 20 years, systems have been invented which do this better. The leading one, I think, would be Fate, which allows Fate points to be used both for the fiction-introduction and the result-blocking purpose. Another well-known one is GUMSHOE.
 

There are dozens of posts in this thread explaining why the "secondary functions" of D&D (which I'm inclined to think are the primary functions of 5e D&D) are high-concept simulationist.

The fact that you don't particularly care for the terminology doesn't mean that the analysis can't (and hasn't) been undertaken.

Let's not act like I'm the only one in this thread that thinks shoving most of Dramatism into Sim makes no damn sense. And that disagreement in terminology is the matter now at hand. You can argue I'm biased here, but there have been at least two other people in here who find that pretty nonsensical, and they were not people around for GDS.
 



I don't think this is true, or fair.

From here, written in 2003:

The Threefold Model for role-playing included the term Dramatism, as presented by John Kim at his Threefold Model (http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/) webpage. When I learned about the Threefold, I'd already been thinking about stuff I'd later call Currency and also about Jonathan Tweet's discussion of resolution presented in Everway. The basic notion of the Threefold impressed me: it was time to talk about goals and priorities independently of everything else, then to see whether everything else flowed to and from them. This was at the time that Sorcerer was making its small way into commerce, so the mailing list was the place for our first discussions; most of them are archived at the Sorcerer website (http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com).​
At this point, since "Drama" as a resolution category in Tweet's schema and "Dramatism" as a goals-category in the Threefold referred to two different things, I decided that the names were confusing. Going by which set of ideas was first presented (Tweet's), I changed Dramatism to Narrativism. This terminological change was limited to discussions on the Sorcerer mailing list and later at the Gaming Outpost.​
However, our use of the terms and ideas on the Sorcerer mailing list took on its own character almost immediately​

From here, written in the latter part of 2001:
  • Simulationism is expressed by enhancing one or more of the listed elements in Set 1 above; in other words, Simulationism heightens and focuses Exploration as the priority of play. The players may be greatly concerned with the internal logic and experiential consistency of that Exploration.
The "listed elements in Set 1" are "Character, System, Setting, Situation, and Color."

Here, early in 2003, he adds that "Obviously the thing to do is to get as clear an understanding of "Exploration" as possible. It's our jargon term for imagining, "dreaming" if you will, about made-up characters in made-up situations. It's central to all role-playing, but in Simulationist play, it's the top priority."

There is no burying of the idea of drama. There is (i) a resolution of a terminological conflict, and (ii) an attempt to analyse what is involved in "drama"-oriented RPGing.

One of the principal phenomena that Edwards wants to understand is the sorts of conflict that are generated by classic D&D alignment, dark side points, Vampire metaplots, etc - ie play expectations and associated techniques that seem to reliably cause conflicts over who gets to decide these matters that are central to play.

In the early 2003 essay he says the following about the simulationist approach to "drama", under the heading High Concept:

In cinema, "High Concept" refers to any film idea that can be pitched in a very limited amount of time; the usual method uses references to other films. Sometimes, although not necessarily, it's presented as a combination: "Jaws meets Good Will Hunting," or that sort of thing. I'm adopting it to role-playing without much modification, although emphasizing that the source references can come from any medium and also that the two-title combo isn't always employed.​
The key word is "genre," which in this case refers to a certain combination of the five elements as well as an unstated Theme. How do they get to this goal? All rely heavily on inspiration or kewlness as the big motivator, to get the content processed via art, prose style, and more. "Story," in this context, refers to the sequence of events that provide a payoff in terms of recognizing and enjoying the genre during play.​
This sort of game design will be familiar to almost anyone, represented by Arrowflight (Setting), Pax Draconis (Setting), Godlike (Setting), Sun & Storm (Setting + Situation), Dreamwalker (Situation), The Godsend Agenda (Character-Setting tug-of-war), The Collectors (applied Fudge, Situation + Character), Heartquest (applied Fudge; Character), Children of the Sun (Setting), Fvlminata (Setting), and Dread (Situation + Character), Fading Suns (Setting), Earthdawn (Setting), Space: 1889 (Setting), Mutant Chronicles (Setting), Mage first edition (Character), Mage second edition (Setting), Ironclaw (Setting), and Continuum (Setting with a touch of System). Many Fantasy Heartbreakers fall into this category, almost all Setting-based. Some of the best-known games of this type include Tekumel, Jorune, Traveller (specifically in its mid-80s through mid-90s form), Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon, Nephilim, Feng Shui, the various secondary settings for AD&D2 like Al-Qadim, and quite a few D20 or WEG games which rely on licensing. I am coming to think of D20 as a kind of High Concept chassis, a very new and interesting development in RPG design.​
Also, most incoherent game designs are partly or even primarily High Concept Simulationist as well, with AD&D2 and Vampire (first edition) as the best-known examples.​
At first glance, these games might look like additions to or specifications of the Purist for System design, mainly through plugging in a fixed Setting. However, I think that impression isn't accurate, and that the five elements are very differently related. The formula starts with one of Character, Situation, or Setting, with lots of Color, then the other two (Character, Situation, or Setting, whichever weren't in first place), with System being last in priority.​
I also recommend examining Theme carefully. In this game, it's present and accounted for already, before play. The process of prep-play-enjoy works by putting "what you want" in, then having "what you want" come out, with the hope that the System's application doesn't change anything along the way.​

That's analysis, not burying! And expressly draws the contrast with purist-for-system/"process sim".
Thanks for pointing all that out. I was trying to acknowledge some of the frustration I'd heard about drama from the one model to the other, and wasn't clear about that.
 


Really? I was under the impression that GNS Simulation included both "process" Sim and "genre" Sim. As in, I thought several people had explicitly said that. Was I mistaken?
Genre emulation turns out is another of those fraught turns of phrase. The other part of sim from process is high-concept sim, and that can be genre emulation (I'd argue that FATE does this), but the point here isn't that genre is involved, but how it's involved. If genre is the point, it's sim. If genre is just present, not so much. So a game can be like AW which drips genre in some regards, but genre isn't the point of play.
 

There is no genre emulation bucket in GNS.
Really? I was under the impression that GNS Simulation included both "process" Sim and "genre" Sim. As in, I thought several people had explicitly said that. Was I mistaken?
There is no genre emulation bucket in GNS.
Sim. Pretty explicitly so from what I gather. Its not all Sim does, but its the only reason Dramatism would have been swept in there at all.
My understanding is that Edwards deliberately excluded genre.

And once again, emulation ≠ simulation.

Or, what @Ovinomancer just said.
 

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