D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[GMforPowergamers]

In 5e I can imagine it happening if the fighter doesn't get any magic items, allies, or other boons from adventuring to cover access to stuff otherwise granted via magical class features - but I have never seen a high-level game without magic items. That would be weird.

do you also not see the druid and warlock getting items and boons?

thats the thing I see this all the time and it's always so odd... I put items and boons (i like having special abilities that a monster like NPC has and can teach as a boon, and I like god granted boons...or demons, or better yet demons masquradeing as gods) but I never see them go ONLY or even MOSTLY to one st of players... in general my players have similar (although not the same exact) amounts of these things... heck the only time I remember noticeable imbalance was when we had an artificer with like 4 attuned items and the other characters had 1 or 2... but again that was caster help.

At low levels, fighters tend to outshine wizards,

no they don't... the fighter gets 2hp per level on a wizard a slightly better ac and at best a bit more damge per round

really. At mid levels, unless the dm runs the game oddly all classes tend to get their moments.

yeah... the wizard druid and cleric pick there moments, and every once in a while a fighter gets some lucky crits off...

Spoiler: giving items to balance (why I don't anymore)

back in 3.5 I had a game with a HUGE imbalance. and taking advice from here I tried to fix it with a fun item based off a comicbook character. I made a yellow lantern ring that gave a bonus to intimidate, and the s[ell like ability of fear at will... and the amount of HD you succussed in intimidating or using the fear spell on gave the ring charges... and the ring had like half a dozen spell like abilities that could be used with charges. if anything my fear was that this might have OVER compensated but I figured why not... I even made it only works if you have 2 or more ranks in intimidate, and the weak spell theif character was the only one to have ranks in that skill... so this was good

then the necromancer who was the single most powerful character in the game convinced the spell thief/prestige class I don't remember that it was better in his hands since it was 1 DC higher AND those spell like abilities would help save the big spells... just wait for level up and he would drop ranks cross class into intimidate facepalm.

that was the firsst (but far from the last) time in years I broke DM role and said "NO!" they could NOT trade items, even though I usually leave it up to the PCs... that actually ended the campaign with an argument and us all deciding it would be better to start over.

 

[jmartkdr2]

do you also not see the druid and warlock getting items and boons?

They do, but since the most transformational items are weapons, fighters get more from it. "More magical options" isn't as big a shift as "magical options when you didn't have any before"

thats the thing I see this all the time and it's always so odd... I put items and boons (i like having special abilities that a monster like NPC has and can teach as a boon, and I like god granted boons...or demons, or better yet demons masquradeing as gods) but I never see them go ONLY or even MOSTLY to one st of players... in general my players have similar (although not the same exact) amounts of these things... heck the only time I remember noticeable imbalance was when we had an artificer with like 4 attuned items and the other characters had 1 or 2... but again that was caster help.

I tend to see a slight preference towards martials since they can use more items - but not by much. Not all items have the same impact on gameplay.

no they don't... the fighter gets 2hp per level on a wizard a slightly better ac and at best a bit more damge per round

2d6+str (reroll 1's and 2's) is a lot more the 1d10+0

yeah... the wizard druid and cleric pick there moments, and every once in a while a fighter gets some lucky crits off...

Or uses a maneuver, or a rune, or a spell...

You do use subclasses, right?

Spoiler: giving items to balance (why I don't anymore)

back in 3.5 I had a game with a HUGE imbalance. and taking advice from here I tried to fix it with a fun item based off a comicbook character. I made a yellow lantern ring that gave a bonus to intimidate, and the s[ell like ability of fear at will... and the amount of HD you succussed in intimidating or using the fear spell on gave the ring charges... and the ring had like half a dozen spell like abilities that could be used with charges. if anything my fear was that this might have OVER compensated but I figured why not... I even made it only works if you have 2 or more ranks in intimidate, and the weak spell theif character was the only one to have ranks in that skill... so this was good

then the necromancer who was the single most powerful character in the game convinced the spell thief/prestige class I don't remember that it was better in his hands since it was 1 DC higher AND those spell like abilities would help save the big spells... just wait for level up and he would drop ranks cross class into intimidate facepalm.

that was the firsst (but far from the last) time in years I broke DM role and said "NO!" they could NOT trade items, even though I usually leave it up to the PCs... that actually ended the campaign with an argument and us all deciding it would be better to start over.

Which sounds about right for 3e, but what does that have to do with 5e, which I specifically called out as the edition that needs the least work to keep balanced (in a 5e thread)?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

They do, but since the most transformational items are weapons, fighters get more from it. "More magical options" isn't as big a shift as "magical options when you didn't have any before"

so boots of flying... do I give it to the melee warrior or the ranged spell caster?
item that stores a spell (ring, stone ect) do I give it to the guy that can refill it or the one that needs it refilled?
wands, scrolls, staves... all going to the caster

but yes a +1 long sword or +1 shield will go to a melee combatant (but does it go to the hexblade/paliden or the fighter/rogue?)

I tend to see a slight preference towards martials since they can use more items

hol on they can't use any spell completion item... that alone takes them out of most (but hexblades bards and clerics are still in alot of them)

- but not by much. Not all items have the same impact on gameplay.

yeah, a +3 defending flamtongue isn't goiing to impact like a staff of fire will

2d6+str (reroll 1's and 2's) is a lot more the 1d10+0

by yours that is 2d6+3 vs 1d10+0 (10 vs 5) but it could just as easlily be (and in my experence fighters are sword and board about half the time) 1d8+3 but in melee compared to 1d10+0 at range (7 v5)

Or uses a maneuver,

yup 1 subclass or some feats but as you say

or a rune, or a spell...

most of them are casters/magic users... becuse every fun useful thing in 5e is hidden behind the 'use magic' sub systems

You do use subclasses, right?

yes and casters get them (alot at 1st or 2nd level before fighter and rogue get to 'earn' there's at 3rd)

Which sounds about right for 3e, but what does that have to do with 5e, which I specifically called out as the edition that needs the least work to keep balanced (in a 5e thread)?

it is the same answer i have gotten since 2e re packaged for 5e. 4e fixed it and 5e broke it (a little less broken then 3e... but 3e was the word). what it has to do with is fixing power imbalance with class or race or anything but items with items lead to BOTH CHARACTERS CAN USE ITEMS...

lets go more basic. a level 3 hexblade (bladelock)/3 oath of vengence paliden and a level 4 fighter (weaponmaster) 2 rogue are at the same table... the fighter/rouge feels both under powered and like he isn't as versitile... you put a magic sword in the game, how do you control who gets it?

 

[Lanefan]

yup... sometimes I just outright say "cleric make a religion roll, no thief you can not make one" I try not to do it too often (since the other character DID spend resources to get it) but sometimes I have to call on 'special knowladge'

What I often do for specialized knowledge is give a roll to each "expert" in the party (e.g. each Cleric gets a roll if it's a religion question) and then one generic roll for the rest of the party put together, to cover off the idea of someone randomly happening to know something one wouldn't expect.

 

[Lanefan]

so boots of flying... do I give it to the melee warrior or the ranged spell caster?

Why would you-as-DM be specifically giving it to anyone, rather than just to the party as a whole?

Don't your players/PCs control how treasure is divided within their party?

 

[jmartkdr2]

lets go more basic. a level 3 hexblade (bladelock)/3 oath of vengence paliden and a level 4 fighter (weaponmaster) 2 rogue are at the same table... the fighter/rouge feels both under powered and like he isn't as versitile... you put a magic sword in the game, how do you control who gets it?

Why would I want to? Battlemaster's fantastic - if the rogue dip didn't work out as planned we'd retrain that.

Also, is this a recurring problem in your games? One play builds a strong-synergy multiclass and another builds a weak-synergy multiclass and you don't allow retraining so you're looking for other solutions? Because that doesn't sound like a fundemental issue with 5e.

 

[jmartkdr2]

Why would you-as-DM be specifically giving it to anyone, rather than just to the party as a whole?

Don't your players/PCs control how treasure is divided within their party?

Right: if the 15th level fighter can't get any of the items that would help deal with a flying encounter - that's the party's problem, not the dm's.

If the dm refuses to give out any items that let the fighter deal with flying encounters, that's the dm's fault - But those dm also generally don't send pc to the plane of air either, because it's a low-magic game.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Why would you-as-DM be specifically giving it to anyone, rather than just to the party as a whole?

me as a DM... I don't. with less then a handful of exceptions (including the above ring that ended a campaign, and a holy avenger I out right told the rogue he couldn't sell instead of letting the paladin have it) always let the players decid. that is the issue though. the players normally take "who can get the most out of it" more then "how can we balance the game" even if they complain about the balance.

in the boots of flying example the idea of a wizard getting flight and still having a concentration spell up will almost ALWAYS take it over a fighter getting to fly... even if for months the fighter has complained about too many flying advaceries...

WORST of all is if an argument breaks out "I need flight to keep up" "I can be invisable in the air dropping fireballs and that is WAY better then you closeing with some wyvern knights" and then people take sides and we loose a night of RP to arguments that bleed in and out of game as people take sides.

Don't your players/PCs control how treasure is divided within their party?

99.9% of the time... that is why you can't balance a class by putting an item in unless the item ONLY WORKS for the class you need to buff "AKA Boots of flying only a fighter can attune to"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Why would I want to?

in this case I am answering to "why not make magic items balance class imbalance"

Also, is this a recurring problem in your games? One play builds a strong-synergy multiclass and another builds a weak-synergy multiclass and you don't allow retraining so you're looking for other solutions? Because that doesn't sound like a fundemental issue with 5e.

yes and no. It isn't becuse we agree ahead of time to an amount of optimization and try to keep to it... but it does block off some concepts. the problem is casters better then non casters 7 out of 10 times. This means we see either all caster or no caster parties with very few exceptions

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Right: if the 15th level fighter can't get any of the items that would help deal with a flying encounter - that's the party's problem, not the dm's.

except again teh fact that the fighter needs special items given by DM to keep up with an out of book caster is a PROBLEM