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D&D General Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I'm not quite following this. If it is something a player desires from their play and aims for, can you clarify how it is not their purpose? Perhaps there is a semantic issue clouding this, as desire is listed among synonyms for purpose. Can it be restated in different language?
When used in this hyphenated fashion, it is a jargon term I've invented, since I don't personally care for the term "creative agenda." A "game-purpose" is something a person making a roleplaying game sets as a (perhaps the) goal of their design, what play is "for" in that game. Thus, things that can't be strictly "designed for" (such as effortlessness) may still be something worth having, indeed may be something a designer absolutely should strive for, but they aren't a "game-purpose" in this sense.

It seems that citing it isn't particularly productive, but I've mentioned Aristotle's causal theory for a reason. A "game-purpose" is like a "tool-purpose" or a "software-purpose." It is both an ideal toward which the tool, game, or purpose bends, and (because games, tools, and software must be used to do something, otherwise they are inert) also the actions that will need to be taken to give life to this goal.

Perhaps "game-design-purpose" clarifies it? This is about design, which is distinct from use, even though use necessarily* follows in part from design. What are games made for doing? Which is distinct from player motives. A "game-(design-)purpose" is the overall goal of the roleplaying design effort, the terms (Score, Conceit, etc.) of play and the process (Achievement, Issues, etc.) of play that produce such a thing. A "player motive" is whatever reason the player may have for choosing to play a given game. Praise or prestige, for example, are (aspects of) "player motives," because it isn't possible to design a game such that praise or prestige will be simply summoned out of the aether by the game itself--these things can only be conferred by other players, due to having played. (As OSP's Red once put it, "There is nothing less cool than someone trying desperately to convince you that they are cool.")

You can, for example, design a Score-and-Achievement game in such a way that the Score is brutally hard, such that few people will have the patience or interest to actually complete it. Poorly-done examples of this in the video game space are sometimes called "Nintendo Hard," though even that requires caveats. (TL;DR: old games had to be small and simple, so brutal difficulty was required to make them last. Today, games are vast and spacious things, so they can have nuanced difficulty.) Well-done games of this type tend to be riotously popular with a narrow slice of the gaming community, see: From Software and their products. Elden Ring appears to have been a sweetspot, just hard enough to still give the "HURT ME PLENTY" fans what they want, but accessible enough to take a solid slice of the wider gaming community.

But even if your game IS brutally hard...there's no guarantee people will receive praise or prestige for their success. Some games become (in)famous for their difficulty, so if you can say you beat them legitimately, you will likely be afforded that public esteem. But some games are just...hard because they're hard, and won't mean much to an outsider. That one game with the jumping square gliding to the right against a techno soundtrack, for example; I can't even remember what it's called, but it was famous once upon a time and that fame has diminished, taking with it most of the praise or prestige for having earned great success (=Achievement) in playing it.

It's not really possible to design a game such that it will get people praise if they play it. We may have skinner boxes, but they're not that effective at psychological manipulation! :p Likewise, I'm skeptical that it is possible to truly guarantee that "flow" will result from your game, and "tempo" is something I think far, far too fundamental in the design of...well frankly most designed things, period. Effortless function/utility is a laudable aesthetic goal of literally anything humans design, and I don't doubt that there are gamers who search for games that can give them that feeling. (I, personally, get some feels in that direction from 13th Age and to a lesser extent from 4e, which is why it's such a shame I haven't played the former very much and have only done like three campaigns in the latter, none of which even reached Paragon tier.) But as a "I'm a designer, sitting down to design a game, so I'm going to make a game where its designed purpose is to have tempo and to flow" sounds silly to my ears.

Perhaps a better way to phrase some of what I've said: I see my "game-(design-)purposes" as answers to the question, "Why would someone make this roleplaying game?" The different emphasis is important. It is the making, not the playing, that is central to the question; as far as I'm concerned, the motives people have for wanting to play roleplaying games may outnumber the stars, and they're certainly too numerous for me to try to nail them all down. But it isn't just the making in general--it's the making of this specific game. What is its gameplay loop? What is the point of playing this game? And if we can identify what general categories of "the point of playing this game" exist, then we can start asking (which I think you may have already leapt to doing), "How does one make a great game with this point-of-playing-a-game?" Hence why you seem to be very focused on player motives (the things that a well-designed game should account for) and individual design techniques/tools (specific ways in which the designer can pursue the intended design).

*To some extent. Abstract things, like software and games of all stripes, can be heavily, heavily modified, to the point that they go well outside their original design. Mods, or house rules, can be seen as use re-defining design, but that goes well beyond what I'm trying to examine, not least because of how self-referential/meta this can become if you do try to account for ad-hoc systemic redesign to fit player motives.
 

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My own hypothesis based on personal experience is that the mainstream part of the hobby generally consists of people who have a strong affinity for High Concept / Dramatism play. Fidelity to story, character concept and setting tends to almost always win out over other concerns. Most of the conflicts I see at traditional tables are the sort of conflicts that are internal to that space. This is what Robin Laws' Player Types are really aimed at - not overall differences of agenda, but minor differences within the same agenda.
I'd say most typical RPG play today, and thus probably what your average player is mostly after, is a kind of explorative tourism mixed with some externally generated tension. So you have GM as quest-giver and arranger of the vast majority of fiction. That fiction is arranged so as to present some level of challenge, resulting in some degree of tension revolving around getting past various obstacles so that more of the setting can be toured. It dovetails exactly with the common form of modules/adventures/APs, which posit some sort of driving impulse (G1, the classic model for all following modules has a couple paragraphs at the start which does this in an almost purely abstract fashion for example). Following the impulse leads the characters through a series of locations. Usually this is LARGELY linear, though sometimes there's an element of 'choose the order you do things in' or even a path A and B where you follow one or the other. VERY rarely you run into an adventure where the choice is other than location-based, like it could involve which NPC you ally with, etc. This is uncommon because splitting parties on this kind of choice would be super easy, and that doesn't serve the agenda all that well.

Now the whole WotC '5 types of player' thing comes in. Within the above paradigm you can introduce some harder gamism, elaborate on the exploration, incorporate scenarios of mayhem and slaughter, incorporate puzzles, and emphasize specific types of challenges, like resource management, etc. 5e doesn't actually do all of these tasks super well, but with some GM motivation you can 'make it work'.

What, in your choice of frameworks, does this sort of play analyze out to? I think it somewhat depends on the table. There's a fair amount of gamism, players playing to 'get ahead' and 'beat the dungeon', though I think few are really hard into it IME. Otherwise its mostly 'explore the setting' kind of stuff, possibly proactively enough that the PCs get to make their mark on it (which I would call a form of exploration, not really 'dramatism'). This could go in a High Concept direction, if the participants want to focus on some specific concepts, or just mild exploratory play where you tour around Waterdeep or whatever and 'fun stuff happens'. I leave it to others to put a label on that, but it probably moves back and forth between at least a couple agendas without really going far in any one direction.
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
What is the goal of a taxonomy? Is it to describe, depict and analyze games? Is it to engage in a sort of elaborate virtue signaling, placing games (and gamers) either inside or outside the in group and establish a pecking order?

All you do by treating games like RuneQuest, B/X and Apocalypse World as divergent is cut off those communities from the larger one, increasing tribalism. Honestly the kind of attitude I am seeing on display makes me feel incredibly unwelcome here. Despite efforts to improve the model we are using for discussion I am getting continually rebuffed and told some of my favorite games and modes of play are unworthy of discussion and representation.
 

And that's where I leave you. I think Ezekial is exactly right here, and the fact you've seen a lot of failure states shows more about how difficult it is to get people to commit to what they want than it is that wanting varied things is intrinsically a problem.

The problem is that “I’ve seen a lot of failure states” is a series of observations.

Now where have I seen them?

* I’ve seen them in the wild while observing peoples home games (not participating).

* I’ve seen an endless deluge of them, with no safe harbor in sight, sited on ENWorld and other places.

What do the have in common?

* The issues I’ve sited.

How have I nearly wholly avoided them despite GMing more than 10,000 hours of TTRPG play with 100s of neurologically diverse participants in the last 38 years?

I’m not a Wizard and I don’t have a Heward’s Handy Haversack of magic pixie dust.

I’ve avoided them mostly because I’ve overwhelmingly run games that have helped me do what I’ve said above (from pawn/token stance Moldvay/RC to Over the Edge/Everway to all the more recent - last 20 years - games people have seen me mention).

On the rare occasion that I’ve personally run into problems it’s been a few stray moments of a player who has a particular neurological orientation that they can’t overcome or, overwhelmingly, some iteration of “the great lieutenant problem” sited above; a system problem. After reflecting on an understanding that, I buckled down, endured and brought those games to conclusion. After which I course-corrected and didn’t run them again.

I then used those reflections to develop my understanding of this stuff and winnow my subsequent decision-tree when choosing games in the future.

Despite an absurd amount of GMing and variety (both games and players), I have had only two problems since 2005 (both related to players with a “habit problem”).

I feel confident that is not a coincidence (but rather directly related to all the virtual ink I spill on these boards)!
 

niklinna

satisfied?
See my post directly above as I address this.

I would dispute the “satisfied by artfully switching” claim. At least I’ll dispute it as anything approaching “best practices.” I’ve seen a sort of absence of intentful, clarified design (let’s say) fail over and over again precisely because “artfully switching” amidst a minefield of potential failure points is extraordinarily difficult. It often leads to some instantiation of “the great lieutenant refresh problem” I cited in my post above.

Last night, in the Stonetop game I run for @Ovinomancer and @hawkeyefan and two other players, we got through an enormous amount of content in 2.75 hours of gameplay (likely 3-4 times the content that your average D&D game resolves in the same time). No “social pixel-bitching.” No rancor (overt or passive-aggressive). Never a single need to “artfully switch between agendas.” This is because system coherently integrates Gamist and Story Now priorities, people understand the rules/procedures/principles, and all the stuff to make the above possible is deftly and functionally offloaded onto system (preempting any instance of conversation or experience dysfunction before it is made manifest).
If the play modes/agendas apply to moments or decisions, then what is the difference between "artfully switching" and "coherently integrating"? This gets to what I was asking about earlier in my question about weaving play modes/agenda, I suspect.
 

I'm not even sure its "high concept" in some cases, unless you're of the view that no non-real-world sim can be other sort. The reification of the Vancian casting happened early on because its, honestly, so damn weird that people weren't comfortable having an in-world explanation for how it worked.

(And I think "drift" honestly understates it; I think it was actively driven in that direction by people who didn't find the old, really heavily Gamist style adequate to what they were doing. But that may just be me having a connotational issue).
No, I think it exemplifies how Gamist and High Concept Sim agendas conflict like heck sometimes. It was damned hard to do what 1e AD&D literally promised, to play an equivalent of Conan, Odysseus, or Aragorn. Instead you made up your pog, which at level 1 was more of an insect than a hero, and 99% of the time you got squished before level 3. All you COULD do was focus on the gamist elements in order to get your character to around level 5, where it was even worth giving 'pog' an actual name. I mean, many/most GMs drifted things by making it easier and easier to run that gauntlet (which perfectly explains how in original D&D 0 hit points is stone cold dead, but in AD&D 1e it MIGHT optionally hold a chance of surviving, and in 2e that extends to a certain degree of negative hit points, and then that becomes more solidified in 3e, etc.). So, yeah, 90% of the audience did not find classic D&D to be doing what they wanted.

One problem that we all ran into somewhere in there was that within D&D's imagined process and structure, there simply is no place for player-driven dramatic engagement. You can't formulate, as a game element, stuff like an 'assassination attempt'. I mean, the GM can FIAT this stuff, but otherwise you just have these exploration/combat rules that only work in a narrow range of situations. You can invent task-focused mechanics ('skills') and whatnot, or special rules subsystems (the assassination table), but they don't fit in well with the rest of the game. Resolution isn't 'open' either, so you can only achieve being the Conan that the GM allows for, and you won't reliably get what you want out of that. This clearly got a lot worse when what you wanted was to actually explore specific dramatic needs and play out the resulting conflicts.
I don't think the latter is so much an issue of conflicting agendas that simple resistance to change, honestly (maybe the former, too, far as that goes).
There's an agenda part of it there. Anyway, 'resistance to change' translates to 'desire to experience the pure unadulterated thing' too. And that is easily formulated as an agenda.
 

If the play modes/agendas apply to moments or decisions, then what is the difference between "artfully switching" and "coherently integrating"? This gets to what I was asking about earlier in my question about weaving play modes/agenda, I suspect.

A whole lot of failure points, related rancor, and disappointing play! :p

To be less cheeky, the other difference between “artfully switching” and “coherently integrating” is the function of time (the latter happens before play…during intentful design…while the former happens in-situ via social elbow grease + FKR-brand Trust TM + deft and amenable participants who are willing to spend table time on issue triangulation and dispute resolution)…

…and some magic pixie dust over engineering.
 

There often are a lot of nuances involved in questions of overall play agenda, but let's not get [naughty word] twisted. The it's a spectrum argument is often deceptive even when it is technically true because it makes things on far ends of a spectrum seem much closer than they actually are. Like if Adventurer's League is a 0, Critical Role is like a 5, the way I run L5R 5e is like a 40, and Apocalypse World is like a 99 - that would be a spectrum. Still would not be anywhere close to the same play experience.

I don't really view it as a spectrum though because to me creative agenda is about what I can expect from the people I play with. If I cannot expect to regularly come across situations that relate to my character's dramatic needs (without them being used to draw me into a plot) whether or not it happens when the GM is in the mood for it is kind of irrelevant to me.
Right, one way of looking at it that I think captures what you and @Ovinomancer are saying: Monopoly and Checkers are both considered board games. I don't see any way in which we could talk about them as being on a 'spectrum'. They are simply distinct things, although they obviously share some traits and structure which does justify the top level categorization of 'board game'. Now, maybe you could find a way to incorporate some elements of one board game into another. You can certainly construct some taxonomy within the board game category too, and that might be useful in telling you which board games can likely borrow from each other.
 

clearstream

(He, Him)
What is the goal of a taxonomy? Is it to describe, depict and analyze games? Is it to engage in a sort of elaborate virtue signaling, placing games (and gamers) either inside or outside the in group and establish a pecking order?
In my case, I feel that the models I had as references (GDS, GNS, GEN) reflect some but not all of the urges that I intuitively feel should fall within "gamist", given how heavily for me that label is suggestive of engaging with game as game (frex not as sim, not as story). I acknowledge that someone can say "gamist" is a privileged label for X. I'm not fond of that viewpoint, but in any case - what I mean by gamist is both inclusive of preexisting theories using the term, and accepting of blurring of boundaries, filling in of details, and outright additions.

All you do by treating games like RuneQuest, B/X and Apocalypse World as divergent is cut off those communities from the larger one, increasing tribalism. Honestly the kind of attitude I am seeing on display makes me feel incredibly unwelcome here. Despite efforts to improve the model we are using for discussion I am getting continually rebuffed and told some of my favorite games and modes of play are unworthy of discussion and representation.
I strongly stand beside you in saying that every one of the games you have mentioned is not only worthy of discussion, but represents a meaningful, valuable, and rightly influential landmark in the evolution of RPGs.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
A whole lot of failure points, related rancor, and disappointing play! :p

To be less cheeky, the other difference between “artfully switching” and “coherently integrating” is the function of time (the latter happens before play…during intentful design…while the former happens in-situ via social elbow grease + FKR-brand Trust TM + deft and amenable participants who are willing to spend table time on issue triangulation and dispute resolution)…

…and some magic pixie dust over engineering.
Ah. This seems to indicate you view "artfully switching" as something the game system wasn't designed for, and that the GM must improvise on the fly. That wasn't how I interpreted @EzekielRaiden's original comment, since they mentioned layering or embedding, which to me strongly implied something designed into the system.

In any case, some concrete examples would help a lot!

@Manbearcat I have little to add, other than as said above, players are sometimes interested in fulfilling different agendas in different contexts. More or less, a good hybrid game is one where the players' wants are satisfied by artfully switching between agendas/modes/etc., such that the layering or embedding actually causes better alignment rather than worse.
 

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