D&D 5E Let us "fix" Expertise!

[Argyle King]

This severely nerfs the Rogue class. The difference between expertise and proficiency in tier 2 goes from +3 to +1.

If it were up to me, I would rewrite most of the numbers that 5E currently uses, but that would require a new edition.

The difference from a 1d4 (2.5 average) and a 1d6 (3.5 average) is +1, so the rogue still ends up with a boosted chance of success. Also, the rogue gets a chance at a higher possible maximum.

All of that is on top of sneak attack and the variety of other things the class gets as a whole.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Reviving an old thread.
My idea - thoughts? problems?

Untrained = 1d20 + Ability Mod
Trained = 1d20 + Proficiency Mod + Ability Mod
Expertise = 1d20 + Proficiency Mod + Ability Mod (minimum 10 + Ability Mod)

Replace Reliable Talent with some other class feature from some of the splatbooks.

 

[jgsugden]

If you want to fix something, you need to understand what is broken about it.

Let's start by providing an example where a game session or adventure was ruined by the presence of expertise, or we otherwise had a significant negative outcome. Does anyone have one? I have yet to see one. I see plenty of times when a PC is very effective due to expertise whn attempting to do something, but I have yet to see it be problematic. The ability 'busting' bounded accuracy is a feature of expertise - not a bug.

 

[SteveC]

Expertise is a big deal for the characters that have it, and ... I don't see that as a problem. Characters who are skill based succeeding at skill checks is, as far as I can tell, how the system is intended to work.

I generally feel that DCs are set too high, and playing a low level game now I see lots of failure that requires the DM to act to move things forward in the case of checks that are necessary to move the game forward.

Playing a character with Expertise feels like I can make a real contribution to move the game forward.

 

[AnotherGuy]

If you want to fix something, you need to understand what is broken about it.

Let's start by providing an example where a game session or adventure was ruined by the presence of expertise, or we otherwise had a significant negative outcome. Does anyone have one? I have yet to see one. I see plenty of times when a PC is very effective due to expertise whn attempting to do something, but I have yet to see it be problematic. The ability 'busting' bounded accuracy is a feature of expertise - not a bug.

'Busting' bounded accuracy is an issue in my games. I'm not a fan of grapple rolls heading into the mid 20's.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Expertise is a big deal for the characters that have it, and ... I don't see that as a problem. Characters who are skill based succeeding at skill checks is, as far as I can tell, how the system is intended to work.

I generally feel that DCs are set too high, and playing a low level game now I see lots of failure that requires the DM to act to move things forward in the case of checks that are necessary to move the game forward.

Playing a character with Expertise feels like I can make a real contribution to move the game forward.

This is not one of my concerns - my DCs are set nicely within the 10-20 range and the PCs are level 13. The only time where 20 is exceeded - is on contested rolls.

 

[Stormonu]

Yes. But I don't like it.
It means the rogue always rolls at least a 23 at that time for sneaking... That is way overkill in most cases.
I'd rather have something like the brabarian feature that lets you replace a roll with your strength score, but for all attributes. That makes it also quite reliable.

Meanwhile, the wizard's been casting invisiblity since 3rd level - possibly with silence on top of it.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Meanwhile, the wizard's been casting invisiblity since 3rd level - possibly with silence on top of it.

And at the same time, invisibility does not replace sneaking but enhances it.

I stand my point, reliable talent is overkill.

 

[Mort]

And at the same time, invisibility does not replace sneaking but enhances it.

I stand my point, reliable talent is overkill.

Has it ever actually caused a problem in one of your games? What was the problem?

Every time I've run high level games (which is rare but I just ran a session for 15th level characters this last Friday), it hasn't been the least bit overkill. The rogue had 2 situations where it mattered. The wizard, in the same session, banished a foe that could have been a BIG problem and forcecaged another one that would likely been even worse.

I suppose it could get a bit cheesy with grappling - but since you need 11+ levels of rogue to do it that's a HUGE investment for such a payoff.

So I like it as a mid-high level ability.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Has it ever actually caused a problem in one of your games? What was the problem?

Every time I've run high level games (which is rare but I just ran a session for 15th level characters this last Friday), it hasn't been the least bit overkill. The rogue had 2 situations where it mattered. The wizard, in the same session, banished a foe that could have been a BIG problem and forcecaged another one that would likely been even worse.

I suppose it could get a bit cheesy with grappling - but since you need 11+ levels of rogue to do it that's a HUGE investment for such a payoff.

So I like it as a mid-high level ability.

No. But I still don't like it. That is my preference. I don't mind it either. I just don't like it.