D&D 5E Are Per Rest Resources a Hindrance?

[James Gasik]

I'm reminded of a Knights of the Dinner Table comic where the DM tried to enforce rations. He audited everyone's sheets and gave them access to real world drinks and snacks only equivalent to what their characters were carrying around- if you want to eat or drink more at the table, you had to find food in game.

After a short time of this, the Wizard teleported home and ordered himself a pizza.

 

[Shardstone]

The 5MWD makes encounter design push class design off the rails.

If the Wizard and Paladin use 95% of their spells in one encounter, they're using much more resources than the Fighter or Warlock is even capable of. That means the people playing the Fighter and Warlock feel like they're totally unnecessary. It means the DM can design a super deadly encounter that challenges the Wizard and Paladin but completely bowls the Fighter and Warlock over, or they can make encounters that are supposed to consume the amount of resources that the designers expect an encounter to consume.

If the PCs can reliably rest -- and it should be pretty clear from the spells in the PHB that the game designers do want the PCs to be able to reliably rest when they choose to -- then the only drawback to playing like this is whatever consequences the DM can imagine. Because the mechanics reward the players when they do this. The game rewards the PCs for long resting after every encounter because it always returns them to maximum effectiveness. There is no benefit in the game's mechanics to continuing on to the next encounter instead of stopping to rest.

It's like the weapon reload button in a first person shooter. There's no reason not to do a tactical reload, so players just do it all the time. Or the save game button. There's no reason not to save scum in X-COM. There's no reason in most CRPGs not to rest after every encounter and save before every encounter.

You can add penalties, like lost ammo or limited saves or save points, or checkpoints, etc. But it's better to reward the players than punish them. So the game should probably invent ways to reward the players for playing correctly rather than constantly punishing them for whatever exploit they imagine.

I just don't see how this is a problem in 1-3 encounters a day.

Most encounters only last 3 rounds. That's a potential 3-9 spell slots anyone is dumping out. The Warlock not only has other tricks, like Eldritch Invocations (I would agree that the ones that use spell slots shouldn't), but really comparing anything to the Wizard in particular I find is unfair. The Wizard is a known problem in 5E design, but I think that's a problem with the Wizard specifically, not the 5 min work day.

If the Champion Fighter feels useless after 9 rounds of combat, that's also an issue with the Champion Fighter, not the work day. But I really don't think anyone is going to feel useless after 3 encounters per day.

 

[Shardstone]

Furthermore, my greater question still stands: what is so fun about being the only person still able to fight after everyone else has spent all their resources? I find it very difficult to think that the mass appeal of the Fighter or Rogue is that after 10 combats, they begin to shine. I'm not sure anyone wants to grind out 8 encounters per day in order to actually feel useful, or that this particular kind of fun (which is completely valid) is something that the game should be based around.

 

[James Gasik]

Especially since, let's say you do have the "classic" party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard. Ok, at some point the casters are down to cantrips. The Fighter and Rogue can carry on as long as they have hit points, but now these last few fights are going to be a slog since only two characters are able to function at anything close to 100% (and maybe not even the Fighter if he hasn't had a chance to recharge his short rest abilities).

I always try to conserve resources when I play, but there are those times where "spending more resources now means you have more resources later", by shortening encounters.

 

[Shardstone]

Especially since, let's say you do have the "classic" party of Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, and Wizard. Ok, at some point the casters are down to cantrips. The Fighter and Rogue can carry on as long as they have hit points, but now these last few fights are going to be a slog since only two characters are able to function at anything close to 100% (and maybe not even the Fighter if he hasn't had a chance to recharge his short rest abilities).

I always try to conserve resources when I play, but there are those times where "spending more resources now means you have more resources later", by shortening encounters.

This is a very good point I hadn't thought of. It isn't really fun to be on the 8th encounter of the day and all you have is Firebolt, True Strike, a Longsword, and a Dagger to take on the third white dragon found in this dungeon. But I think this issue is alleviated if you are liberal with magical items.

 

[James Gasik]

A lot of issues clear up if you use magic items. Unfortunately, since they are "optional" content and there isn't really any guidance for how to use them, when to use them, when you should find items of X rarity, and which ones might be problematic, a lot of DM's are conservative about them, or even seem afraid of their potential to "wreck the game".

 

[Mort]

Furthermore, my greater question still stands: what is so fun about being the only person still able to fight after everyone else has spent all their resources? I find it very difficult to think that the mass appeal of the Fighter or Rogue is that after 10 combats, they begin to shine. I'm not sure anyone wants to grind out 8 encounters per day in order to actually feel useful, or that this particular kind of fun (which is completely valid) is something that the game should be based around.

And it's not really accurate anyway (that fighters will shine after others have blown their resources).

Fighters (and martials in general) have another big limited resource HP. Fighter's get exactly 1 class answer to getting more HP (second wind) and while it's nice, it's VERY limited. The whole point of most fighters (not all, but still) is to absorb hits so the more squishy members don't have to.

And in 5e, even with a good AC, they get hit A LOT. So how realistic is it to say the Cleric (or bard or whatever) is out of spells, but the fighter is still good to go? Not very, the fighter is likely down HP and without easy access to healing he's nowhere near full capacity to do his shtick.

Now Paladins and Barbarians have some additional resources re: HP. But they are ALSO long rest recharge, so it's not that different.

Edit: now rogues, on the other hand, can be REALLY good at avoiding HP loss. I've seen the rest of the party be in single digits or down (granted we don't have any barbarians in the group) and the rogue had barely even been hit. Evasion, bonus action hide (with the right terrain) and uncanny dodge for emergencies are a heck of a non-resource draining combination.

 

[James Gasik]

And it's not really accurate anyway (that fighters will shine after others have blown their resources).

Fighters (and martials in general) have another big limited resource HP. Fighter's get exactly 1 class answer to getting more HP (second wind) and while it's nice, it's VERY limited. The whole point of most fighters (not all, but still) is to absorb hits so the more squishy members don't have to.

And in 5e, even with a good AC, they get hit A LOT. So how realistic is it to say the Cleric (or bard or whatever) is out of spells, but the fighter is still good to go? Not very, the fighter is likely down HP and without easy access to healing he's nowhere near full capacity to do his shtick.

Now Paladins and Barbarians have some additional resources re: HP. But they are ALSO long rest recharge, so it's not that different.

This is better in 5e than in 3e or before, since you have a lot of Hit Dice you can use if you can get a rest, but it's still worth noting.

 

[payn]

I always try to conserve resources when I play, but there are those times where "spending more resources now means you have more resources later", by shortening encounters.

Thats the heart of play that I want, making these kinds of decisions. I do think adventure design come into play. I know 6-8 encounters per day is some type of guide. Though, I'd like to hear more about doing a 3-4 or even 1-3 encounter type of day. Up the severity and challenge level? I also know that can be difficult for a GM to signpost the adventuring day ahead, but figuring that out as a player is also something I really enjoy.

 

[Mort]

This is better in 5e than in 3e or before, since you have a lot of Hit Dice you can use if you can get a rest, but it's still worth noting.

Sure, but if you get a rest (even a short one) other resources renew too, such as warlock spells and the bard can pop off song of rest.

I was more commenting on the whole, can go longer than anyone WITHOUT rest. Though your point about it being better/easier than 3e still stands.

That said, I've been allowing 5 minute short rests for the group (limit 2 between a long rest), kind of the opposite of many people's longer rest variants. My group likes the cinematic feel of being able to push on and its worked well for us.