D&D 5E Vs Vecna battle simulations.

[DND_Reborn]

so, just to ask for a ruling... so I understand DS isn't doable in the A.M. fields, however word from the mount says IDS is.... what say you DM?

I agree with JC:

So, IMO improved divine smite would work, but since divine smite is powered by spell slots, it won't work.

But others need to chime in with their views to try to get a consensus.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Regarding True Sight and being Hidden:

So, I have no clue where the argument that True Sight can detect hidden creatures is coming from...

 

[Charlaquin]

so, just to ask for a ruling... so I understand DS isn't doable in the A.M. fields, however word from the mount says IDS is.... what say you DM?

wat

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Regarding True Sight and being Hidden:

View attachment 251407

So, I have no clue where the argument that True Sight can detect hidden creatures is coming from...

Confusing it with tremorsense.

No he doesnt instantly know you're casting a spell. He can just identify a spell as it's being cast without needing to make an ability check, presuming he knows a spell is being cast.

And as your (M component lacking) spell is being cast Subtly (with no V or S components), he doesn't see you cast it, so he doesnt know you're casting a spell.

All he sees is you literally just standing there looking at him. There is no trigger for his reaction.

You're kinda making that up. I mean, it's fine - I get why you might think that s spell being cast with no VSM component means no one can tell that you are casting a spell, but there really isn't anything that I know of that says that is explicitly so.

Vecna's counterspell says "a person he can see that is casting a spell". You ARE casting a spell, whether you are doing so with VSM or not. He can see you. I would think that Vecna (of all people) can see that you're casting a spell, regardless of if you are waving your hands, wand, or sage while talking gibberish, or just standing there willing it to happen.

 

[Mistwell]

Treatmonk just ran a simulation with TWO completely non-optimized ordinary human fighters level 20 and no magic items. They killed Vecna before Vecna got a single turn.

 

[Mort]

Treatmonk just ran a simulation with TWO completely non-optimized ordinary human fighters level 20 and no magic items. They killed Vecna before Vecna got a single turn.

That's not exactly right.

1. They were Arcane archers so not just "ordinary."

2. They WERE optimized-ish in the sense that they had 20 dex, archery style and sharpshooter.

3. If I recall correctly, the scenario was set in an essentially open environment with Vecna never being able to break line of sight (no teleporting behind a pillar as a reaction, for example, and he made sure the the archers had a large initiative bonus and had them both equal a 20 so as to beat lair actions). So while he didn't fully optimize the archers he optimized the situation for them - something Vecna shouldn't let happen.

Thought It was an interesting thought experiment, and it did show Vecna IS weak for a CR 26 - but he put his thumb on the fight quite a bit

 

[DND_Reborn]

Treatmonk just ran a simulation with TWO completely non-optimized ordinary human fighters level 20 and no magic items. They killed Vecna before Vecna got a single turn.

Well, I would hardly call those builds "non-optimized" but it does show one of Vecna's greatest weakness: the lack of the shield spell. That alone would have kept him alive past their attacks.

His numbers are off, as well. He adds the arcane shot arrow damage twice, when it is just once per turn (action surge gives you another action, not another turn). The arcane shot also has to be declared when the shot is fired, not when it hits. So, if the fighter imbues the bursting arrow and the arrow misses, the bonus damage is lost. He also assumes lucky will add 33 damage for three misses, but that is only if you miss three times. If you miss less than 3 times, it counts as less.

FWIW, I got damage at about 129 DPR per fighter, close enough to finish Vecna if doubled. If the fighters get lucky really at all, expected damage should be enough to finish him off.

Anyway, add in the shield spell, and how would the fighters have faired after that? Not as well, DPR drops to under 80... so Vecna will easily survive to his turn, then dominate one, heal himself, and likely win the fight. All because of the shield spell.

FWIW, I could make a single level 20 PC Wizard who would crush those two fighter like bugs. IMO, that makes Vecna even sadder.

 

[Mort]

Hahaha. Bit cheesy, but RAW works.

No he cant.

He can only target 'a creature he can see that is casting a spell'. If he doesn't know you're casting a spell (subtle spell) he cant counter it, even if he can see you.

Regular Counterepell says "see a person casting a spell..." So yes, you have to see the caster casting a spell. Subtle spell prevents this, you cannot counter.

Vecna's version: Vecna utters a dread word to interrupt a creature he can see that is casting a spell. Vecna had to see them and they have to be casting a spell, if both are true, he can dread Counterepell.

So he DOES NOT have to see the target casting, he just has to see the target. Subtle spell shouldn't stop it Otherwise, why word it differently?

And regardless, it completely FITS with Vecna to interpret the ability this way. He SHOULD be a nightmare to spellcasters, that's kind of his thing.

 

[Mistwell]

That's not exactly right.

1. They were Arcane archers so not just "ordinary."

Ordinary human as opposed to variant human.

2. They WERE optimized-ish in the sense that they had 20 dex, archery style and sharpshooter.

By level 20 you're going to have a 20 in your primary stat as a fighter. You get a gazillion stat increases as a 20th level fighter. He even takes essentially useless fears and stat increases along the way to demonstrate how truly non-optimized it is. And yeah, they shoot bows so they have the fighting style and feat for that. Not what I'd call "optimized" given they dumped Con and pumped Charisma and Intelligence and never wore decent armor and have zero magic items. I mean come on, that's about as bog-standard non-optimized ordinary build as you can get.

3. If I recall correctly, the scenario was set in an essentially open environment with Vecna never being able to break line of sight

It's set in the room that the adventure Vecna appears in...appears in. No change at all. And he uses the video from WOTC telling you how to play Vecna, no change at all.

 

[Mort]

Ordinary human as opposed to variant human.



By level 20 you're going to have a 20 in your primary stat as a fighter. You get a gazillion stat increases as a 20th level fighter. He even takes essentially useless fears and stat increases along the way to demonstrate how truly non-optimized it is. And yeah, they shoot bows so they have the fighting style and feat for that. Not what I'd call "optimized" given they dumped Con and pumped Charisma and Intelligence and never wore decent armor and have zero magic items. I mean come on, that's about as bog-standard non-optimized ordinary build as you can get.



It's set in the room that the adventure Vecna appears in...appears in. No change at all. And he uses the video from WOTC telling you how to play Vecna, no change at all.

Treeantmonk recognized a serious weakness in the build yes. But my point was they WERE optimized-ish enough to exploit it, they didn't need further. And the high initiative and assuming a 20+ (so about 50% chance by the build) was generous and necessary for the stomping to occur.