Out with the old (Game design traditions we should let go)

[Grendel_Khan]

The post you're referencing from me is my experience from having tried things suggested in this thread.

There's a world of difference between "I've tried that and it doesn't work" and "you should stop playing in a way that works for you."

OK, then, let's get into it. Here's you in this thread.

"If you’re willing to sit and watch other people at the same table as you RP for hours on end while you do nothing but watch, knock yourself out. I have zero interest in that."

"In most team-based RPGs there are at most vignettes that don’t include most of the players. If the referee is worth their salt they’ll keep these to a minimum, keep them short and sweet, and not let players spotlight hog."

And so on. You're repeatedly talking about how the thing doesn't work, and not in a removed, detached sense. "If the referee is worth their salt" is not mildly sharing your experience. You're arguing full-force for a specific position, which also just happens to be normative and dogmatic and classic TTRPG received wisdom that's been designed around for years, for those who want to try something different. You can obviously argue whatever you want, but if you argue that a thing isn't possible, and in fact is bad GMing, and then you're met by a multitude saying they've done it, it works, etc., it's ok to just take the L and move on. No need to play the victim after specifically saying that a certain approach is not only an example of a referee who isn't worth their salt, but also players hogging the spotlight. So not just bad GMing, but bad playing. Assumptions of badness all around!

 

[Ovinomancer]

Must have missed the "subtlety" here.

Was the "subtlety" calling Apocalypse World a "weird" game?

 

[Reynard]

Must have missed the "subtlety" here.

Just to be clear, you are equivocating "telling others what to do" with "would probably benefit from"?

 

[overgeeked]

OK, then, let's get into it. Here's you in this thread.

"If you’re willing to sit and watch other people at the same table as you RP for hours on end while you do nothing but watch, knock yourself out. I have zero interest in that."

"In most team-based RPGs there are at most vignettes that don’t include most of the players. If the referee is worth their salt they’ll keep these to a minimum, keep them short and sweet, and not let players spotlight hog."

And so on. You're repeatedly talking about how the thing doesn't work, and not in a removed, detached sense. "If the referee is worth their salt" is not mildly sharing your experience.

I never claimed I was detached nor mild. I have opinions. This is a discussion forum. Note how I include things like "knock yourself out" and other similar statements along with "I have zero interest in that."

You're arguing full-force for a specific position

LOL. Ah...no. That's funny.

which also just happens to be normative and dogmatic and classic TTRPG received wisdom that's been designed around for years, for those who want to try something different.

Not everyone in the thread wants to try something different. As seen in...I don't know...all the posts saying so. Also, go look at my early posts in...say...this thread. All the way back in post #5...

Any rules beyond "let the referee decide" and "roll opposed 2d6, higher roll wins." Everything else is extraneous. Even the dice are extraneous. You could sub in the table for the referee, but then you have more moving parts and more possible points of failure.

That's about as anti-"normative, dogmatic, and classic RPG received wisdom" as you can get. But go on, tell me how I'm part of the gaming orthodox you're out to smash.

You can obviously argue whatever you want, but if you argue that a thing isn't possible, and in fact is bad GMing, and then you're met by a multitude saying they've done it, it works, etc., it's ok to just take the L and move on.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Most things are possible with the right table. Trouble is...not everyone gets the Platonic ideal of a table when they try things. Except, apparently, everyone trying "non-standard" gaming. Seems like it's always perfect.

No need to play the victim...

Looks like you're projecting a bit.

 

[Reynard]

Was the "subtlety" calling Apocalypse World a "weird" game?

Probably, if you took it wrong. Tongue was planted firmly in cheek, there.

 

[Umbran]

No need to play the victim ...

Looks like you're projecting a bit.

Mod Note:
The two of you are both making this personal. It pretty much guarantees that this will be an ego contest instead of a reasoned discussion.

So, please stop making this about each other. If you can't resist trying to make this about the other person, instead of the topic, it is time to walk away. Thanks.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Mod Note:
The two of you are both making this personal. It pretty much guarantees that this will be an ego contest instead of a reasoned discussion.

So, please stop making this about each other. If you can't resist trying to make this about the other person, instead of the topic, it is time to walk away. Thanks.

On average, how many times a week would you say you have to repeat this? Not snarky, legitimately curious.

 

[Gradine]

Resource management. Let characters do the cool things that they do.

It's the JRPG "but what if I need those 20 elixirs on the next boss" issue. I hate making budgets enough in my real life, I don't want to do it when I play games

 

[Aldarc]

Resource management. Let characters do the cool things that they do.

It's the JRPG "but what if I need those 20 elixirs on the next boss" issue. I hate making budgets enough in my real life, I don't want to do it when I play games

This is one reason why I would love to see TTRPGs look at other video games, such as MOBAs, which may provide a small subset of cool character-defining abilities that their characters can do quite often.

 

[Lanefan]

... Then there would have been three more than previously.

And each of them sitting out (or watching) 4/5 of the time* rather than just half the time*.

* - less any time spent on actual PC-PC interaction and-or when all the PCs are running together as a group, but particularly the latter of these seem to be minimized in the style of game being put forward.