From Forgotten Realms to Red Steel: Here's That Full D&D Setting Sales Chart

CleverNickName · Jul 20, 2022

Reynard said:
I don't understand why people are so against actually doing dungeon crawls correctly in 5e is. All the talk of "old school sensibilities" of 5e and the popularity of OSR and the suggestion of actually making an official Old School 5E thing and people just can't.

It's weird.

Not sure what you mean by "doing dungeon crawls correctly in 5E." There are lots of ways to run a dungeon, and some are easier than others, but is there a such thing as a correct method?

Reynard · Jul 21, 2022

CleverNickName said:
Not sure what you mean by "doing dungeon crawls correctly in 5E." There are lots of ways to run a dungeon, and some are easier than others, but is there a such thing as a correct method?

There are indeed a lot of ways to run a dungeon crawl, but we were talking explicitly about Old school, Greyhawk era dungeon crawling -- which, while not monolithic, definitely fits intoa tighter definition than it does in the modern era. Saying one doesn't need to alter 5E to make it work for that era of dungeon crawling is, IMO, entirely ignoring the procedures and playstyle of that kind of play.

Hussar · Jul 21, 2022

DorkForge said:
As a person that started playing in 5E here's why I don't really have any interest in Greyhawk as a property:

It's just a fantasy setting, or at least, that's what it comes across as.

Eberron, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, Dark Sun etc. are all dramatically different from a typical fantasy setting, they have gimmicks and novelties that set them apart and draw interest. Whilst there is a touch of Greyhawk in 5e, I'd wager that most players didn't notice and don't care, Saltmarsh being set there is just a bit of 'neat' trivia to me personally, it doesn't fundamentally change the experience.

That said, should they choose to sell Greyhawk stuff it will sell well, not because of Grognards with disposable income, but because 5e sells well.

If I could toss this into the mix.

There's a fantastic Dungeon Magazine adventure from the tail end of Paizo running Dungeon magazine. Erik Mona is a MASSIVE Greyhawk nerd and just loves the setting and you can see it in a lot of the adventures that Paizo Dungeon banged out. I mean, they didn't call it PaizoHawk for nothing. All three of the first Adventure Paths - Shackled City, Age of Worms and Savage Tides were love letters to Greyhawk. They really were Greyhawk adventures, just with the serial numbers filed off.

But, there was one stand out adventure that really caught my eye as probably encapsulating Greyhawk the best called War of the Wielded (Dungeon 149). Here's the elevator pitch:

Centuries ago, two rival thieves' guilds crafted a number of intelligent weapons to aid them in their conflicts. Although the guilds are now long dead, their weapons remain, and have begun to recruit new soldiers from the people of Sasserine. Can your PCs put an end to this deathless war?

This, to me, just highlights everything Greyhawk. You have ancient magic - check. You have a completely morally ambiguous conflict (the two factions were both evil) - check. You have a conflict which is ultimately futile and nihilistic - check. There are no heroes in this story really. The conflict is pointless, everyone who was fighting this war is long dead but, the evil of the conflict lingers, causing pain and destruction long after the war is over. It's a REALLY dark story and, honestly, I'd LOVE to turn this into a full blown campaign. What a fantastic seed - the PC's are now embroiled in this secret war being fought between intelligent weapons which use their power to take over people and continue the war.

THIS is a Greyhawk adventure in a nutshell. It just hits all the right notes. You wouldn't generally see this kind of adventure in Forgotten Realms (not that you couldn't, of course, but, rather, it just doesn't really fit with the general tone of FR adventures). FR adventures are mostly pretty heroic - Hoard of the Dragon Queen being a prime example. The baddies are really bad. The party is good. Same with most of the WotC Forgotten Realms based AP's in 5e. Evil cultists (generally) are trying to enact some scheme and the heroic PC's are trying to stop them from their dastardly deeds.

To me, this is what sets Greyhawk apart from Forgotten Realms. This whole morally grey nature. Even in Ghosts of Saltmarsh, the main source of trade in Saltmarsh as far as the PC's are concerned anyway (she's the only source of magical items for sale) is a tiefling in Saltmarsh, there to trade for food for Iuz. Since Keoland isn't at war with Iuz, she has no real problems doing business in Saltmarsh. This isn't something I've generally seen in Waterdeep where the "good folks" only really deal with other "good folks" and the "bad folks" keep to the "bad folks". I don't see free trade between Waterdeep and some Underdark city, for example. Which is something you totally would see in Greyhawk.

Anyway, I've rambled on too long. I hope this does make it clear though what the difference between the settings is.

Parmandur · Jul 21, 2022

Hussar said:
If I could toss this into the mix.

There's a fantastic Dungeon Magazine adventure from the tail end of Paizo running Dungeon magazine. Erik Mona is a MASSIVE Greyhawk nerd and just loves the setting and you can see it in a lot of the adventures that Paizo Dungeon banged out. I mean, they didn't call it PaizoHawk for nothing. All three of the first Adventure Paths - Shackled City, Age of Worms and Savage Tides were love letters to Greyhawk. They really were Greyhawk adventures, just with the serial numbers filed off.

But, there was one stand out adventure that really caught my eye as probably encapsulating Greyhawk the best called War of the Wielded (Dungeon 149). Here's the elevator pitch:

This, to me, just highlights everything Greyhawk. You have ancient magic - check. You have a completely morally ambiguous conflict (the two factions were both evil) - check. You have a conflict which is ultimately futile and nihilistic - check. There are no heroes in this story really. The conflict is pointless, everyone who was fighting this war is long dead but, the evil of the conflict lingers, causing pain and destruction long after the war is over. It's a REALLY dark story and, honestly, I'd LOVE to turn this into a full blown campaign. What a fantastic seed - the PC's are now embroiled in this secret war being fought between intelligent weapons which use their power to take over people and continue the war.

THIS is a Greyhawk adventure in a nutshell. It just hits all the right notes. You wouldn't generally see this kind of adventure in Forgotten Realms (not that you couldn't, of course, but, rather, it just doesn't really fit with the general tone of FR adventures). FR adventures are mostly pretty heroic - Hoard of the Dragon Queen being a prime example. The baddies are really bad. The party is good. Same with most of the WotC Forgotten Realms based AP's in 5e. Evil cultists (generally) are trying to enact some scheme and the heroic PC's are trying to stop them from their dastardly deeds.

To me, this is what sets Greyhawk apart from Forgotten Realms. This whole morally grey nature. Even in Ghosts of Saltmarsh, the main source of trade in Saltmarsh as far as the PC's are concerned anyway (she's the only source of magical items for sale) is a tiefling in Saltmarsh, there to trade for food for Iuz. Since Keoland isn't at war with Iuz, she has no real problems doing business in Saltmarsh. This isn't something I've generally seen in Waterdeep where the "good folks" only really deal with other "good folks" and the "bad folks" keep to the "bad folks". I don't see free trade between Waterdeep and some Underdark city, for example. Which is something you totally would see in Greyhawk.

Anyway, I've rambled on too long. I hope this does make it clear though what the difference between the settings is.

I mean, there us an entire Underground city to facilitate trade between Waterdeep and the Underdark and outer space at the same time, there is plenty of moral ambiguity to go around.

I'd be so cheeky is to say that the real difference is that the Forgotten Realms is a Canadian conception of Heroic Fantasy, while Greyhawk is American Midwestern.

Hussar · Jul 21, 2022

Parmandur said:
I mean, there us an entire Underground city to facilitate trade between Waterdeep and the Underdark and outer space at the same time, there is plenty of moral ambiguity to go around.

I'd be so cheeky is to say that the real difference is that the Forgotten Realms is a Canadian conception of Heroic Fantasy, while Greyhawk is American Midwestern.

Kinda sorta? Sure, the underground city exists in Waterdeep - but, it's illegal. It's not part of Waterdeep really. Or, well, of course it's part of the setting, but, it's not something that some random Waterdhavian commoner can just walk into and do business. Skullport is meant as a black market, quite literally.

As I said, compare that to Saltmarsh. Not only is the representative of an evil god openly doing business on the main street of Saltmarsh, but also the party is expected to not really have any problem with this. Add to this, the fact that half of Saltmarsh is in favor of smuggling and the town is in conflict over the imposition of the rule of law from Keoland. It's a major element of the Saltmarsh setting - those who are in favor of the new prosperity offered by increased intervention from the Crown and those who want things to remain as they were - a little light smuggling and whatnot is an amusing peccadillo.

Thinking about it, your cheeky assertion isn't too far off the mark I'd say.

CleverNickName · Jul 21, 2022

Reynard said:
There are indeed a lot of ways to run a dungeon crawl, but we were talking explicitly about Old school, Greyhawk era dungeon crawling -- which, while not monolithic, definitely fits intoa tighter definition than it does in the modern era. Saying one doesn't need to alter 5E to make it work for that era of dungeon crawling is, IMO, entirely ignoring the procedures and playstyle of that kind of play.

Yeah, I'm going to echo one of your earlier posts. I strongly disagree, but I'm not gonna argue about it.

DorkForge · Jul 21, 2022

Hussar said:
If I could toss this into the mix.

There's a fantastic Dungeon Magazine adventure from the tail end of Paizo running Dungeon magazine. Erik Mona is a MASSIVE Greyhawk nerd and just loves the setting and you can see it in a lot of the adventures that Paizo Dungeon banged out. I mean, they didn't call it PaizoHawk for nothing. All three of the first Adventure Paths - Shackled City, Age of Worms and Savage Tides were love letters to Greyhawk. They really were Greyhawk adventures, just with the serial numbers filed off.

But, there was one stand out adventure that really caught my eye as probably encapsulating Greyhawk the best called War of the Wielded (Dungeon 149). Here's the elevator pitch:

This, to me, just highlights everything Greyhawk. You have ancient magic - check. You have a completely morally ambiguous conflict (the two factions were both evil) - check. You have a conflict which is ultimately futile and nihilistic - check. There are no heroes in this story really. The conflict is pointless, everyone who was fighting this war is long dead but, the evil of the conflict lingers, causing pain and destruction long after the war is over. It's a REALLY dark story and, honestly, I'd LOVE to turn this into a full blown campaign. What a fantastic seed - the PC's are now embroiled in this secret war being fought between intelligent weapons which use their power to take over people and continue the war.

THIS is a Greyhawk adventure in a nutshell. It just hits all the right notes. You wouldn't generally see this kind of adventure in Forgotten Realms (not that you couldn't, of course, but, rather, it just doesn't really fit with the general tone of FR adventures). FR adventures are mostly pretty heroic - Hoard of the Dragon Queen being a prime example. The baddies are really bad. The party is good. Same with most of the WotC Forgotten Realms based AP's in 5e. Evil cultists (generally) are trying to enact some scheme and the heroic PC's are trying to stop them from their dastardly deeds.

To me, this is what sets Greyhawk apart from Forgotten Realms. This whole morally grey nature. Even in Ghosts of Saltmarsh, the main source of trade in Saltmarsh as far as the PC's are concerned anyway (she's the only source of magical items for sale) is a tiefling in Saltmarsh, there to trade for food for Iuz. Since Keoland isn't at war with Iuz, she has no real problems doing business in Saltmarsh. This isn't something I've generally seen in Waterdeep where the "good folks" only really deal with other "good folks" and the "bad folks" keep to the "bad folks". I don't see free trade between Waterdeep and some Underdark city, for example. Which is something you totally would see in Greyhawk.

Anyway, I've rambled on too long. I hope this does make it clear though what the difference between the settings is.

Whilst I'm sure that does a good showing of Greyhawk, I just don't see how that exact thing couldn't happen in any number of fantasy settings. Which is my point, there's literally nothing stopping these kind of story beats happening in a place like FR (I'm not attached to the realms, it's just serving as the generic fantasy setting). Like dealing with someone that isn't 'good' that's entirely story dependent and just takes the adventure saying they're there, but if you want an actual example from the WotC realms, I'm running dragonheist right now as an evil campaign. I didn't even have to adjust the game for a faction, the game presents the Zhentarim as an option by default.

Ultimately the in depth parts of FR and GH that matter for these things don't matter to new players, if it's the 'tone' that sets it apart that tone can be imposed on any setting via the adventure you're running. Only fans of those settings will know, appreciate and actual care that certain things are inherent to the setting.

Whereas other settings offer actual differences in style of play and play options, which is really what people (IMO) want from settings nowadays.

Hussar · Jul 21, 2022

DorkForge said:
Whilst I'm sure that does a good showing of Greyhawk, I just don't see how that exact thing couldn't happen in any number of fantasy settings. Which is my point, there's literally nothing stopping these kind of story beats happening in a place like FR (I'm not attached to the realms, it's just serving as the generic fantasy setting). Like dealing with someone that isn't 'good' that's entirely story dependent and just takes the adventure saying they're there, but if you want an actual example from the WotC realms, I'm running dragonheist right now as an evil campaign. I didn't even have to adjust the game for a faction, the game presents the Zhentarim as an option by default.

Ultimately the in depth parts of FR and GH that matter for these things don't matter to new players, if it's the 'tone' that sets it apart that tone can be imposed on any setting via the adventure you're running. Only fans of those settings will know, appreciate and actual care that certain things are inherent to the setting.

Whereas other settings offer actual differences in style of play and play options, which is really what people (IMO) want from settings nowadays.

I'm not really sure I agree with that actually. Tone matters. Like, a lot.

After all, what sets Ravenloft apart from Forgotten Realms? The only real difference is tone. You certainly could do horror stories in FR. Heck, my players joked that the first half of Candlekeep Mysteries feels much more like Ravenloft than Forgotten Realms - they are predominantly horror stories for the first four or five modules.

There's nothing particularly mechanically distinct about, say, Darksun. More psionics? Maybe? But, it's still very distinctly D&D. Even Spelljammer is actually set (currently anyway) right in Forgotten Realms.

So, no, I'm going to disagree that play options play much of a role in what people want in settings. There's extremely little different in the play options between most settings. Play options aren't what set Eberron apart from Forgotten Realms. It's almost entirely about tone.

wellis · Jul 21, 2022

Hussar said:
After all, what sets Ravenloft apart from Forgotten Realms? The only real difference is tone.

Tone, culture, and tech level. From what I've read of Ravenloft, the Domains are far more humanocentric, the tech level feels more distinctly Renaissance (guns are bigger thing), and it leans more on gothic horror tropes and such.

DorkForge · Jul 21, 2022

Hussar said:
I'm not really sure I agree with that actually. Tone matters. Like, a lot.

After all, what sets Ravenloft apart from Forgotten Realms? The only real difference is tone. You certainly could do horror stories in FR. Heck, my players joked that the first half of Candlekeep Mysteries feels much more like Ravenloft than Forgotten Realms - they are predominantly horror stories for the first four or five modules.

There's nothing particularly mechanically distinct about, say, Darksun. More psionics? Maybe? But, it's still very distinctly D&D. Even Spelljammer is actually set (currently anyway) right in Forgotten Realms.

So, no, I'm going to disagree that play options play much of a role in what people want in settings. There's extremely little different in the play options between most settings. Play options aren't what set Eberron apart from Forgotten Realms. It's almost entirely about tone.

The tone of Raveloft is achieved through it being an inescapable place controlled overall by mysterious forces and immediately, probably by an evil character that's almost like a god in their own domain. That is not the same as just creating a horror game in other settings.

Dark Sun isn't distinctive? A giant desert where you're heavily restricted on resources, where metal weapons are valuable and magic weapons are incredibly precious. where arcane magic not only functions differently but has a social stigma to it. And yes, heavy presence of Psionics as well as other playable races.

The point of Spelljammer is that you get to go on a fantasy spaceship, as well as the variety of weird and wonderful races that come packaged with that.

The wide magic sets Eberron apart from most settings, but typically when players are excited about playing in Eberron they're also excited about playing Eberron options: Changlings, Shifters, and Warforged, not to mention Artificers that fit more naturally in the world.

Ravenloft gave you the change to play a half vampire among other things, I just don't see the claim there isn't much difference for the play options between those settings.

On the other hand, I don't see the difference in play options between GH and any other largely stock fantasy setting.

From Forgotten Realms to Red Steel: Here's That Full D&D Setting Sales Chart

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