D&D 5E Toxicity in the Fandom

[Celebrim]

Well, first of all, I don't agree with your statement "because if you are printing Spelljammer you aren't printing the heroic fantasy I like."

I was particularly referring to the perspective of a fan of the game during the 1990s watching the brand die in a sea of ill thought out printings none of which were making a particularly large amount of money. That perspective I think is one I could have sympathy for.

I'm not missing the point, but I guess I didn't make my point clear: people should be able to buy the material they want. Spelljammer has a large fan base, and those fans have money. You seriously don't see how it is toxic* to want to be catered to as a customer, while refusing other customers the same privilege?

No, I think we are on exactly the same page. I think I would just reverse that perspective. If you look at the perspective of a Star Wars fan immersed in the "Legends" Star Wars lore and what expectations they had for what would be the focus of stories involving beloved characters like Luke, Leia, and Han they are ones whose wishes were denied and who have no forever lost the chance to get what they wanted as a conclusion to the story and to put those characters into the places that they had imagined for them. And for that they are labeled toxic and accused of being the worst sort of people no matter what their complaint actually was. They get to enjoy being labeled with the old stereotypes about nerds and get to enjoy having those stereotypes treated as legitimate in the way we wouldn't allow a large group of people to be labelled by the behavior of the few any more and would treat as problematic.

And the same thing is going on with the Tolkien fans. Fans that see their wants for how the Second Age are to be presented and whose visions of what was going on in the Second Age are going to have their wishes denied. There is not going to be a Second Age that is going to be presented in a way that the crotchety old Professor Tolkien wouldn't find problematic, and so his fans are going to have their wishes denied. And for that they are going to be labeled toxic no matter what or how reasonable their objections actually are. They are going to be denied the product they want. And I'm not really sure we should put the toxicity on them or the brand managers.

 

[Irlo]

Now I'm really baffled. Is anyone arguing that criticiizing of a movie or game or whatever in any manner is inherently toxic? If so that's a little weird.

I’ll join your bafflement. I’ve never seen “toxic” used to describe any and every criticism.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And the same thing is going on with the Tolkien fans. Fans that see their wants for how the Second Age are to be presented and whose visions of what was going on in the Second Age are denied are going to have their wishes denied. There is not going to be a Second Age that is going to be presented in a way that the crotchety old Professor Tolkien wouldn't find problematic, and so his fans are going to have their wishes denied. And for that they are going to be labeled toxic no matter what or how reasonable their objections actually are. They are going to be denied the product they want. And I'm not really sure we should put the toxicity on them or the brand managers.

So on a side issue ... that's such a weird thing, to me.

Look, if you want your vision of something presented ... then DO IT. Do the work. Put in the hours.

Otherwise, what are you doing? "I really think things should be X, and I demand that other people who are actually creative and not just sitting at their keyboards make things the exact way I would have! Except I lack the ability to do so, so I can't tell you exactly what I would have made, I will just insist that you are denying my wishes because REASONS."

I get it ... to a certain extent. It's nice to find things we like. And it sucks when things we like (or used to like) go in new directions that we aren't used to. For every person who loves Kid A and Amnesiac, there are still Radiohead fans that insist it hasn't been the same OK Computer ... or Pablo Honey.

But I honestly question the feeling of entitlement that leads to that. If you don't like something, then just don't buy it. Vote with your wallet. You don't have to terrorize the creators of the product because they have failed to live up to some type of vision.

 

[billd91]

And I'm not really sure we should put the toxicity on them or the brand managers.

I expect that would depend on how they behave, how they criticize and what they're criticizing. I guarantee there will be toxic critics who will earn that label, honestly, they're already doing so, and the brand managers will be right to call them out.

 

[CleverNickName]

Now I'm really baffled. Is anyone arguing that criticiizing of a movie or game or whatever in any manner is inherently toxic? If so that's a little weird.

I’ll join your bafflement. I’ve never seen “toxic” used to describe any and every criticism.

Looks like some of us think very highly of our opinions.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I get it ... to a certain extent. It's nice to find things we like. And it sucks when things we like (or used to like) go in new directions that we aren't used to. For every person who loves Kid A and Amnesiac, there are still Radiohead fans that insist it hasn't been the same OK Computer ... or Pablo Honey.

But I honestly question the feeling of entitlement that leads to that. If you don't like something, then just don't buy it. Vote with your wallet. You don't have to terrorize the creators of the product because they have failed to live up to some type of vision.

I mean, isn't part of the issue that it's "too late" to "vote with your wallet" in many cases?

Like, your Radiohead example, people are saying they don't like Kid A (i.e. people with no taste) probably already bought Kid A, didn't they?

And I think that's true of like, a huge amount of criticism. People pay for a thing and then don't like the thing. So it's perhaps confusing the argument to mash them in with this other group of people, who haven't bought the thing, and are insisting that thing shouldn't exist.

There's also the slightly complicated issue of "You're doing it wrong!", wherein a product is inevitable, but you dislike the way it's been done, but can do nothing about it aside from not buy it. Like, you can definitely rag on me for this, but I strongly suspect that WotC are going to bring out a Planescape-y book, and also that it's going to be as bland as butter & plain white bread sandwich (where the original Planescape was a bizarre banquet probably involving a lot of things a lot of people didn't want to eat!), and I'm pre-emptively inclined to be annoyed by that because it's going to set the tone for Planescape for at least this edition, and likely for the rest of eternity. And you can say "Well do it right yourself", but dude, if I do that, I may well get sued, right? Because that's how IP law works.

 

[Irlo]

Looks like some of us think very highly of our opinions.

I don’t know what you mean. Can you say more?

 

[Scribe]

I'm pre-emptively inclined to be annoyed by that because it's going to set the tone for Planescape for at least this edition, and likely for the rest of eternity.

I'm carrying a seed of hope, but I'm already working through the stages of grief...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I'm carrying a seed of hope, but I'm already working through the stages of grief...

Right? It's like, at this point I suspect I'd be happier if they just do an MotP and only passingly refer to Sigil and its Factions, but my fear is they give it like four pages and just make the blandest thing that ever happened (THANKS MONTE COOK!).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I mean, isn't part of the issue that it's "too late" to "vote with your wallet" in many cases?

Like, your Radiohead example, people are saying they don't like Kid A (i.e. people with no taste) probably already bought Kid A, didn't they?

And I think that's true of like, a huge amount of criticism. People pay for a thing and then don't like the thing. So it's perhaps confusing the argument to mash them in with this other group of people, who haven't bought the thing, and are insisting that thing shouldn't exist.

Kind of? Obviously, if you've bought a product then you paid for it. But "voting with your wallet" usually refers to forgoing further purchases of the same kind. So for the Radiohead example, we can see that the number of people with good taste > bad taste. Or you would see it in tours.

But it's a more nuanced view than just that. Because sometimes good art turns off people.

Properly viewed, it means that if you don't like something or the direction of something ... don't consume it. No one forces you to. You don't have an entitlement to the direction of something. And you certainly don't have any entitlement to harass the creatives making it.

There's also the slightly complicated issue of "You're doing it wrong!", wherein a product is inevitable, but you dislike the way it's been done, but can do nothing about it aside from not buy it. Like, you can definitely rag on me for this, but I strongly suspect that WotC are going to bring out a Planescape-y book, and also that it's going to be as bland as butter & plain white bread sandwich (where the original Planescape was a bizarre banquet probably involving a lot of things a lot of people didn't want to eat!), and I'm pre-emptively inclined to be annoyed by that because it's going to set the tone for Planescape for at least this edition, and likely for the rest of eternity. And you can say "Well do it right yourself", but dude, if I do that, I may well get sued, right? Because that's how IP law works.

Well, you can always use the old Planescape lore (available!) at your table. Or you can homebrew. Or you can do a number of things.

I totally get that you want to see them "do it right." So do I! And I understand why you don't think they will - that last UA did not bode well at all. It's like someone was trying to sell us Hellman's as Carolina Reaper Sauce.

But in the end, I'm not going to get myself twisted up about it. The sun will rise, the sun will set, I will have lunch, and WoTC will release another elf variant.