D&D 5E Toxicity in the Fandom

[Thomas Shey]

Also, I will say there are some communities that are based in toxic behavior.

Its really difficult to argue that parts of computer game fandom don't land in this.

 

[Celebrim]

Its really difficult to argue that parts of computer game fandom don't land in this.

Online multiplayer competitive games are the worst. Especially shooters. I'm too old to really enjoy pure reflex based games any more at least at a competitive level, but their communities are just embarrassing. And the thing is, the community knows that they are embarrassing there is just nothing that can be done about it. There is an entire group of streamers who make a living embarrassing the most toxic members of the community for the entertainment of their victims.

But really, I've seen this at ping pong tables. I remember this time some girls wanted to play ping pong together and there was this guy who was like, "I was here first, winner gets to keep the table", and he was clearly relishing destroying the young women in ping pong. And so then a more serious ping pong player had to come along and wipe the floor with him, to the applause of some in the room, so that the two novice girls could get a table. And that was like before the internet was a public thing. So there is nothing new under the sun.

 

[CleverNickName]

I am always surprised when people do this type of reaction when D&D brings out an existing old setting. Like, google/wikipedia exists, surely anyone who saw the announcement looked into it, or maybe notice that WotC said they are bringing Spelljammer BACK, IE it existed before?
If this setting confuses you, I wonder what you will say about the giant ring shaped city in the middle of the multiverse, ruled by an enigmatic goddess in an iron mask whose shadow can cut you to ribbons, and maintained by floating humanoids who talk by conjuring up pictures in speech bubbles above their heads, and where people join various sects that have such strong belief in various ideals that they can literally shape that belief and gain powers from it.

It's not that I haven't seen Spelljammer before. The reaction I described upthread for the 5E Spelljammer stuff is still the same reaction I had to it 25 years ago. Two and a half decades later and I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with dragons, knights, and castles. I can see it working perfectly in a Star Frontiers reboot, or a sci-fi RPG like Esper Genesis, but it's too jarring in my mind for D&D.

This is entirely my problem. A lot of people are enjoying the wave of nostalgia for it, and only a jerk would want to spoil that for them. It's just not for me, and that's okay.

See also: Planescape

 

[Irlo]

Delete

 

[Thomas Shey]

Online multiplayer competitive games are the worst.

Yup. As soon as I start seeing the whole "git gud" attitude I immediately decide the person isn't going to have anything to say I need to hear.

Especially shooters. I'm too old to really enjoy pure reflex based games any more at least at a competitive level, but their communities are just embarrassing. And the thing is, the community knows that they are embarrassing there is just nothing that can be done about it. There is an entire group of streamers who make a living embarrassing the most toxic members of the community for the entertainment of their victims.

But really, I've seen this at ping pong tables. I remember this time some girls wanted to play ping pong together and there was this guy who was like, "I was here first, winner gets to keep the table", and he was clearly relishing destroying the young women in ping pong. And so then a more serious ping pong player had to come along and wipe the floor with him, to the applause of some in the room, so that the two novice girls could get a table. And that was like before the internet was a public thing. So there is nothing new under the sun.

Sure, but there's an ability for the Net to concentrate these attitudes all in one place that wasn't nearly as easy prior to it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

It's not that I haven't seen Spelljammer before. The reaction I described upthread for the 5E Spelljammer stuff is still the same reaction I had to it 25 years ago. Two and a half decades later and I'm still trying to figure out what this has to do with dragons, knights, and castles. I can see it working perfectly in a Star Frontiers reboot, or a sci-fi RPG like Esper Genesis, but it's too jarring in my mind for D&D.

This is entirely my problem. A lot of people are enjoying the wave of nostalgia for it, and only a jerk would want to spoil that for them. It's just not for me, and that's okay.

See also: Planescape

I was about to come in and mention Planescape when you mentioned this. I mean, I've mentioned before that I haven't been a primary D&D guy for more than 40 years now, but when those settings were first coming out I kind of cocked my head sideways and said "Ooooh-kay." And this is coming from someone who's D&D games were very kitchen sink, but they just both seemed seriously off-brand in a way that even things like Dark Sun or Ravenloft didn't.

 

[Celebrim]

Sure, but there's an ability for the Net to concentrate these attitudes all in one place that wasn't nearly as easy prior to it.

Maybe. I wonder how much of that is "You Kids Get Off My Lawn!", but to the extent that I agree with the sentiment I think that I'd put it slightly differently.

The internet makes it a lot easier to hear about it. I've known conceptually that people have wanted to kill me since I was a kid. However, the internet makes it a lot easier to actually encounter those people because it just makes it a lot easier to encounter a lot of people. And because the cases when I receive death threats tend to stand out, I could draw the inference more people want to kill me now than ever before. But I don't think hate is becoming more common because of the internet necessarily, it's just that now I can interact with thousands or millions of people instead of dozens or hundreds. To the point that I feel, if you haven't had multiple people express desire for your death online, have you really even been interacting with people online? Or did you just stay in your own quiet village or not scroll down below the fold?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Maybe. I wonder how much of that is "You Kids Get Off My Lawn!", but to the extent that I agree with the sentiment I think that I'd put it silently differently.

No, I'm serious (and I am old). You see it in more benign cases too; its just much easier for anyone with any particular set of interests or attitudes to make contact than it was previously. This has been very obvious to me because I participated in APAs (amateur press association publications) decades ago, and it was pretty much the only game in town to get in communication with groups with common interests and stay in communication with them. And it was, bluntly, a crapton of work. I'm not saying that like it was a virtue, because it was not. And I have no doubt it absolutely put off people who would have wanted to participate in discussion.

But over time, the Internet has made it progressively easier and easier to do this; people who would have found USENET arcane to use, and only located mailing lists with difficulty, found it easier when fora started being a thing you could easily access from the Web. In some respects Discords and things like FB groups make it even easier (though both have issues with large groups).

That seriously just was a sea change.

The internet makes it a lot easier to hear about it. I've known conceptually that people have wanted to kill me since I was a kid. However, the internet makes it a lot easier to actually encounter those people because it just makes it a lot easier to encounter a lot of people. And because the cases when I receive death threats tend to stand out, I could draw the inference more people want to kill me now than ever before. But I don't think hate is becoming more common because of the internet necessarily, it's just that now I can interact with thousands or millions of people instead of dozens or hundreds. To the point that I feel, if you haven't had multiple people express desire for your death online, have you really even been interacting with people online? Or did you just stay in your own quiet village or not scroll down below the fold?

I'm agnostic about whether hate is more common, but I'm absolutely certain its more easy for more of them to talk to each other, and to intrude into areas they previously would have been unlikely to find. And its for the same reason its easier for people in minority groups to make contact and interact than it used to be. Its a two-edged sword.

 

[Celebrim]

That seriously just was a sea change.

Maybe.

I feel like this narrative is pushed by the same people that believe the narrative: "Back in the 1940's, 1950's, and 1960's, the American press was intellectual, fair, and balanced... but then the Fire Nation attacked!" And I know that narrative to be a myth.

The thing is fringe groups have always been able to find each other and organize. I think about the secret society of students in Hugo's Les Mis, meeting in the pub and plotting revolution, or in a less fictional case the early Suffragettes organizing in 19th century America. The thing about 'fringe' groups whatever their cause is they are willing to put in that work to find others that share their beliefs, whether we find those beliefs abhorrent or laudable. I don't feel this is really out of place in a conversation in the Roman empire about heretics. "It's so easy for the Arians to get together these days what with the roads and the messenger services! Back in my day the heretics had to be in hiding..." What's most different in the age of the internet is that you don't have to put in as much work to find them, and different fringe groups are far more aware of each other for the same reason than ever before.

And so I feel like the whole "internet sea change" narrative boils down to, "The fringe groups that are my enemies are more organized than ever before!" and I'm not sure that's the case. It's just easier to peak over the fence and see what the other side is doing. Maybe it is in fact harder to keep the gates shut and keep people from intruding in the Communist Knitting Circle that was planning the deaths of all the anti-revolutionary forces and avoid being mocked for it, or whatever, but that's what you get for planning your revolution online.

 

[Faolyn]

Really? Did he really? Was his language really so strong? You literally as a grown person in the Year of Our Lord 2022 are really hurt and offended by "Not for some "oh someone hurt my fee-fees" nonsense." Is that heresy in your quasi-religious fandom that you had to cover your ears or your mouth in shock? Does someone need smiting now?

His language was dismissive. He basically said "your feelings don't count because they're not the same as mine."