Spelljammer Dark Sun confirmed? Or, the mysterious case of the dissappearing Spelljammer article...

[Maxperson]

But use of foci are segregated by Class. That's why it is significant when features like Bardic Secrets let you treat non-Bard Spells as Bard Spells, or Domain Spells as Cleric Spells.

Foci are segregated by magic type. Certain classes can make use of certain types of foci is all. We know this to be true, because multiple classes can use both arcane and divine foci, which breaks class segregation. If there were class segregation, wizards could not use warlock foci who could not use sorcerer foci who could not use wizard foci, etc.

 

[Maxperson]

It's entirely a holdover from prior editions. There is no general rule that makes the distinction, no Spell is designated one way or another. It survives a bit in Class Spell lists, but there are multiple ways those can be fudged.

Again, "spell" is irrelevant. We aren't talking a general rule. We're talking a specific foci rules that interact with the mostly story divisions of arcane magic and divine magic.

 

[Parmandur]

No general rule =/= no categories of divine and arcane magic. Those categories don't have a general rule for what they are about, but arcane foci and divine foci do interact with those categories. That's why he said mostly story.

There is still a story event that still gets represented in Class write-ups, but being entirely specific now it is nuanced and subtle.

In 3e it was possible to get divine spells as an arcane caster and vice versa. Such crossovers changed to become the type of magic used by that caster. Just like in 5e.

The first evolutionary step towards the current general approach.

I realized when perusing the Wheel of Time d20 RPG from WotC and seeing how magic works like Neo-Vancian casting, that most ideas in 5E really were experimented with AR some point in the 3E era.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Regardless of any lore, they ARE divine casters.

On the basis of says you. Nothing in the rules states that.

Probably because they draw from nature and often nature gods.

They might do. And if they gain their power from a nature god, then they are a divine caster, but definition. But that doesn't mean anything, that's just fluff. If they don't get their power from a god (e.g. anyone in Eberron) who's to say what they are? And so far as the rules are concerned, it doesn't matter.

It literally cannot be rubbish to say that bards need music when using a focus instead of components due to being able to use a component pouch.

The rules say the need an instrument or a component pouch. They don't say they have to play it. Music is a best an optional extra.

It does do something. It allows certain classes to channel arcane spells in order to not use material components.

No, it doesn't. The rules for wizards allow them to do that. And there are magic items that any caster can use as a spellcasting focus, such as the Ruby of the War Mage, even if they don't have a class ability to use [item name] as a spellcasting focus.

 

[Maxperson]

On the basis of says you. Nothing in the rules states that.

:sigh:

"The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power-gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath."

The rules say the need an instrument or a component pouch. They don't say they have to play it. Music is a best an optional extra.

"You have learned to untangle and reshape the fabric of reality in harmony with your wishes and music."

If you want to spell cast with only wishes, use components. If you want to use your instrument as a focus, music is involved.

No, it doesn't. The rules for wizards allow them to do that. And there are magic items that any caster can use as a spellcasting focus, such as the Ruby of the War Mage, even if they don't have a class ability to use [item name] as a spellcasting focus.

The ONLY thing the rules for wizards do is allow wizards to use the general arcane focus on page 151 and those rules. There are no other rules for wizards and arcane foci in the wizard class. They even refer you to chapter 5 to see the rules.

"You can use an arcane focus (see chapter 5, "Equipment") as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells."

 

[Parmandur]

Listed after arcane foci and they channel the divine obviously. And is it your contention that every kind of spell causes defilement on Athas, or just arcane?

I would suggest that working out +how to represent that is a bigger challenge to 5E Dark Sun than Psionics is.

Mike Mearls.om his stream once Gabe a detailed breakdown of how he thinks they would handle it, and it boiled down to banning Sorcerer and Bard, while limiting Warlocks to a new Templar Subclass and Wizards to two new Defiler and Preserver Subclasses. So, yes, the rules for that donezist generally in the game, and WotC own solution is creating Subclass exceptions.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Here we could use a house rule, something like the variant classes from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana or the "archetypes" from Pathfinder. Then a divine or primal sorcerer is possible in your tabletop if you want.

In my tabletop divine and primal are different power sources.

Other point is if "ki" and psionic can work as the same or different power sources. This is important because if after the psionic powers the next step will be a remake of the martial adepts (3.5 Tome of Battle: Book of nine Swords). And then WotC should explain if the martial adepts should be allowed in Athas or not. Or the totemist shaman (incarnum soulmelder). Maybe in Athas some kaiju creatures are worshipped as deities by some Lovecraftian cults/tribes.

Let's remember the last construct races, warforged, autognomes and future glitchlings don't need neither water nor food, and that in Dark Sun it is practically broken, because the survival is one of the hardest challenges.

My theory is they will bet for a spin-off of Dark Sun, because this allows the mixture from different elements (for example the new PC races from the 3.5 psionic handbook). Practically it would be all the crunch, but the original lore totally untouched.

WotC has to choose the future plans about the metaplot. Aren't canon the novels any more?

* What if players want to add to their Dark-Sun game new elements from 3PPs?

* Who would win in a war, the sorcerer-kings or Cobra (the archienemies of G.I.Joe)?

well according to the prophecy of @Parmandur we will get non of that, so assume more derived sub-classes till 6e assuming the world does not explode first.
I am depressingly inclined to believe him.

 

[Mind of tempest]

I would suggest that working out +how to represent that is a bigger challenge to 5E Dark Sun than Psionics is.

Mike Mearls.om his stream once Gabe a detailed breakdown of how he thinks they would handle it, and it boiled down to banning Sorcerer and Bard, while limiting Warlocks to a new Templar Subclass and Wizards to two new Defiler and Preserver Subclasses. So, yes, the rules for that donezist generally in the game, and WotC own solution is creating Subclass exceptions.

that is daft just let people defile whenever, as making it a subclass makes it so it is every setting problem.

 

[Maxperson]

I would suggest that working out +how to represent that is a bigger challenge to 5E Dark Sun than Psionics is.

Mike Mearls.om his stream once Gabe a detailed breakdown of how he thinks they would handle it, and it boiled down to banning Sorcerer and Bard, while limiting Warlocks to a new Templar Subclass and Wizards to two new Defiler and Preserver Subclasses. So, yes, the rules for that donezist generally in the game, and WotC own solution is creating Subclass exceptions.

The actual rules don't exist, but it is referred to in the 5e DMG as a category of magic. Arcane magic defiles.

While I like the idea of limiting warlocks to being the new templar class, I don't think you would need to ban bards or sorcerers at all. What I would do is create a defiling effect for any casting of arcane magic. End of story there. Then I would build in a static XP penalty or perhaps require feats to be taken in order to preserve that could be applied to any arcane casting class.

 

[Parmandur]

well according to the prophecy of @Parmandur we will get non of that, so assume more derived sub-classes till 6e assuming the world does not explode first.
I am depressingly inclined to believe him.

Just calling it as I see it. WotC is actually fairly predictable, though they try not to be.